Faced with Pat Buchanan’s recent display of bigoted delusional rhetoric I find myself feeling more than a little overwrought at the idea of discussing race or racism ever again. Frankly I’d much rather nap until America got over itself. But, I can’t resist debunking sentiments like:
First, America has been the best country on earth for black folks. It was here that 600,000 black people, brought from Africa in slave ships, grew into a community of 40 million, were introduced to Christian salvation, and reached the greatest levels of freedom and prosperity blacks have ever known.
Wright ought to go down on his knees and thank God he is an American.
Second, no people anywhere has done more to lift up blacks than white Americans. Untold trillions have been spent since the ’60s on welfare, food stamps, rent supplements, Section 8 housing, Pell grants, student loans, legal services, Medicaid, Earned Income Tax Credits and poverty programs designed to bring the African-American community into the mainstream.
Governments, businesses and colleges have engaged in discrimination against white folks — with affirmative action, contract set-asides and quotas — to advance black applicants over white applicants.
Churches, foundations, civic groups, schools and individuals all over America have donated time and money to support soup kitchens, adult education, day care, retirement and nursing homes for blacks.
We hear the grievances. Where is the gratitude?
You’ll notice that he’s very careful to avoid talking about the realities of slavery, any historical context for black society in African countries in the past or the present, or things like Jim Crow laws, lynching, and the destruction of black towns that were independent and thriving economically like Rosewood, and the black communities in Springfield and Tulsa. He completely ignores the fact that federal programs like food stamps, TANF, and student loans are all income based with no race specifications., and that affirmative action means that qualified candidates that are not white males get a fair shot. He also ignores the reality that it was black churches, foundations, civic groups, schools and individuals that were funding soup kitchens, adult education, day care, retirement and nursing homes for blacks.
It’s this deliberate misinformation that bolsters the idea that black people are somehow magically getting ahead without merit, and fosters the resentment you see so often from whites that argue so vociferously against the concept of white privilege and against affirmative action. Never mind that the main beneficiaries of affirmative action have been white women. No, let’s just scream about that one time a POC “stole” a job that you really wanted/needed/preferred and ignore the part where you weren’t entitled to that job above all applicants.
It doesn’t help that even in school the history books skim over what Ida B. Wells, the NAACP, The Black Panthers, the NOI and others were doing in support of the black community. Aside from the actual Civil Rights Movement marches and demonstrations that are discussed, there is very little mention of day to day life in black communities. Nor do those history books discuss life after the Civil Rights Act was signed. There’s no acknowledgement of how slowly things changed or what black people still had to do in the quest for equality. This attitude that black empowerment could only come at the hands of whites is (IMO) a large part of the reason why any honest conversation about racism gets derailed with “Look at what we’ve done for you. Slavery is over. Why are you still so angry?” and other such folderol. As we sit through several more months of campaigning I find myself wondering how much further our country could be right now if the truth was taught in schools, if America was willing to own up to its past, if more people knew that poverty isn’t race specific. Heck, if the same news channel that’s been so focused on twisting snippets of Rev. Wright’s speeches wasn’t also hauling Pat Buchanan out as a political commentator at every turn, then maybe some of America could start having that very important conversation about the realities of racism and its impact on our society. Instead lies, misinformation, myths and a general refusal to look at reality will keep that conversation from going any where further than the same old rut.
Karnythia is a writer, a historian, and occasionally a loud mouth. In between raising hell and raising kids she usually manages to find time to contemplate the meaning of life as a black woman in America. Her posts on any topic can be found at her Livejournal.
I will quote myself since you seem to have missed it.
(It was the first paragraph of the reply.)
I see baseless accusations of racism everyday. I see evidence of class issues, but not racism. Just because I don’t agree that a situation is due to racism doesn’t mean that I didn’t see the situation. And every time I see a knee-jerk “racism” accusation, it makes it that much harder to accept any accusation. What Ferraro said was racist? What about when Obama said it himself? It is OK for Reverend Moss to call the kurflufle over Wright a “lynching?” What about when the Golf Channel reporter said it regarding Tiger Woods?
There is a lot of class mobility in America. Immigrants shift class rapidly. Blacks are chronically relegated to lower classes for some reason other than institutionalism. The biggest problem I see is black culture ridiculing and shaming class movement (chastising children for “acting white”, “keeping it real”). When that ends, we will see a drastic change in class structure in America.
(And please don’t tell me that I don’t live in an interracial neighborhood,
Just so I’m clear you think you (a white man) gets to decide what is racism rather than the POC experiencing it? Really? As for the “keeping it real” nonsense it’s absolutely clear that your only interest here was to derail the conversation and look for a place to spout your bigoted rhetoric so that you could then claim to be anti-racist but misunderstood. No one cares what you accept as a valid moment of racism, because we all know that in the end it’s people like you that keep the oppressors in power.
phelps:
“I will quote myself since you seem to have missed it.
White people have given Black People nothing. I say that for two reasons — I don’t believe in Black People or White People (as opposed to people who are black or white), believing them both to be mythical creatures used mainly as straw men. The best I could say about the real situation is that blacks were allowed an opportunity, but that is only because they were denied opportunity for centuries.”
Response to your comment:
“Second, no people anywhere has done more to lift up blacks than white Americans. Untold trillions have been spent since the ’60s on welfare, food stamps, rent supplements, Section 8 housing, Pell grants, student loans, legal services, Medicaid, Earned Income Tax Credits and poverty programs designed to bring the African-American community into the mainstream.”
And that is a damned lie.
What the hell have millions of white people GIVEN black people? What? Hell? Brutish, thuggery and cruelty, yes, but, dignity and respect as human beings? Where? I have not seen where white people, 99.9% of the white population has treated their fellow black citizens as human beings. If white people have been so concerned for the welfare and decent respect of black people’s humanity, why are many white neighborhoods all-white, where if there are POC they are anything but BLACK PEOPLE?
Where have the majority of white people in America given black people so much goodness, peace, joy, happiness, but, most of all RESPECT AS FELLOW AMERICANS in this country? What have white people in all their time in this country, done for black people, as opposed to all white people have done to and against black people?
Give me, Pat Buchanan, your irrefutable concrete evidence of all the magnanimous, wonderful, lovely, outstanding things that white people have done for black people in the last 450 years. (And I am not speaking of one or two whites you can count on one hand; I am not speaking of John Brown, Viola Liuzzo, Lysander Spooner, either. I am speaking of the millions of whites who see black people everyday, all week, all year-long. I am speaking of those white people who cross paths with their fellow black citizens on a daily basis.) Whites have never had an equal fair relationship towards black people in America, so, please, Pat Buchanan, tell me who are these millions of white people who have done so much good and right in the lives of millions of black people?
Convince me.
PROVE IT TO ME.
I would love to see you pull that rabbit trick out of your magic hat.
No country has done so much to destroy black people the way America has. No country has hated a people the way America has, but, then again that hatred is understandable. If you do wrongs for centuries against a people who have done you no wrong, of course you will hate that group of people, Pat Buchanan, not to mention developing contempt and self-hatred of yourself. The self-hatred you will harbor in yourself will eat you up inside because you will know that your people have done countless wrongs and inequities against those people whom you sought to destroy. And in seeing that you could not destroy and tear asunder what God created, you will hate and vilify the very people you could not destroy with all of your lynchings, your slavery, your segregation, your restrictive covenants, your sundown towns, your gerrymandering, your redlining, and your racist stereotypical lies.
How the hell can kidnapping and enslaving an entire people’s ancestor’s, degrading, defiling, and murdering millions of them be in any way a compliment to those wronged people? Black African people had civilizations in Africa before European contact. Civilizations and nations: Mali, Timbuktu, Zimbabwe, Songhay. Black women cultivated rice in West Africa and brought that knowledge…that gift to America, among many other gifts. Black women and men from Africa brought many herbal remedies with them in treating illnesses, knowledge that no white person had. Black people smelt iron and created metalworks, artwork, fabric and textile procedures that no white person of European ancestry had knowledge of.
What gifts has white-run America given to black people and the world, besides white supremacy and white racism?”
SOURCE:
http://kathmanduk2.wordpress.com/2008/03/25/pat-buchanan-a-coward-a-liar-and-a-racist-hater/
phelps:
I don’t believe in Black People or White People (as opposed to people who are black or white), believing them both to be mythical creatures used mainly as straw men.”
Spoken like a person who brushes aside all the vicious abominations that white people have done in the name of “race”.
Race is a depravity created by white Western Europeans to justify sick, sadistic savageries done to black people by white people.
Straw-man, eh?
So, when all of those so-caalled white “men” were raping little black girls during slavery, I guess that was a “straw-man”, eh?
When all of those white women laid down with a black man, had sex with him, had white daddy walk in on them, and she jumped up and cried, “RAPE!”, and got the black man lynched, I guess that was a “starw-man”, eh?
When, gutless, balless, white males threw a bomb into the 16TH Street Baptist Church, I guess that was a “straw-man”, eh?
When in the year 2008, black Americans still live residential, educational and social lives of segregation, I guess those are jall ust “STRAW-MEN”………….eh?
Yeah, that’s us black people.
We’ve been living in the land where The Wizard of Oz Strawman has been beating, raping, burning, torturing, raping, starving, Jane Crowing, bastardizing (we used to be pure black, but now we have the filthy garbage blood of white rapists flowing in our veins), and disenfranchising us for CENTURIES.
And if I read where any white person posts that sorry shithole saying, “I don’t see color, I just see people”, I just might lose my religion.
For white people to have the audacity to state that trifling comment IS an insult to the millions of black people living in America who still ive under the legacy of white supremacy BECAUSE all that MILLIONS of white people ever saw in black people WAS (AND STILL IS)————–COLOR!
What have white people given black people?
A living NIGHTMARE.
A nightmare that continues even to this day.
karnythia.
Sorry for the typos :)
Jack R:
Get it through your thick skull: Even though you obviously want to turn a conversation around, it’s pretty damn apparent no one else thinks the same way. How many fucking times do people have to tell you?
We’ve come just short of saying “shut the fuck up”. But if you insist:
SHUT THE FUCK UP!
ABW, nojojojo, Karnythia:
I apologize if that last comment out of line. I admit I’m guilty of PWA (Posting While Angry).
ABW, Karnythia, I too apologize for my profanity.
Oh…one more note.
I humbly thank the millions of white people of Western European descent for all of the following:
-Gonorrhea
-Measles/Rubella
-Mumps
-Hypertension (developed in African’s systems while on 3-4 month Middle Passage voyages)
-Smallpox
Disease which WERE NOT ENDEMIC to Africa/Black Americans until Africans had the misfortune of coming into contact with the diseased-ridden white Europeans.
o rly?
That’s what we are down to? Ok, AIDS, Ebola, Malaria, and Okra.
I never endorsed Buchanan’s piece. I simply said that he got one part right: “[T]his time, it has to be a two-way conversation. White America needs to be heard from, not just lectured to.”
Thanks for the lecture. Maybe we can try again in a few years.
“I never endorsed Buchanan’s piece. I simply said that he got one part right: “[T]his time, it has to be a two-way conversation. White America needs to be heard from, not just lectured to.””
You’ll get your chance to talk - when you shut up and listen to what minorities have to say first. Because it’s clear that, whenever we try to talk about race, you, or someone else, has to derail it, make a snide comment about blacks/other PoC, and then claim that “I didn’t do anything! Pointing out the comment that I made means that YOU’RE PLAYING THE RACE CARD!”
Simply put - you need to be quiet and listen before you may speak. But privilege will continue to allow white men (who do not face racism at all), to dictate what racism is and is not, against the daily experiences of those who feel the effects of it daily.
I’ve heard what you have to say. Just because I don’t agree doesn’t mean I didn’t understand what you said. I have heard your arguments, and I think they are wrong.
When the part of Black America that has set itself apart from society wants to actually discuss things with the rest of us instead of having a tantrum, we will be waiting.
…
And when you and others are done showing your ass, boy. Ready to have an actual discussion without a high horse, condescension and a host of other ills in your psyches–we can talk to you like you’re an actual adult.
Phelps,
You blame Black America for setting itself apart from society as if they did it just for a lark, as if the door marked “whites only” was never slammed in their faces. As if much of America isn’t still, today, a “whites-only” club, rife with discrimination in everything from housing to jobs to government to entertainment. But somehow it’s not the fault of white society. It’s those stubborn blacks keeping to themselves and not engaging thoughtful, progressive white people like yourself in discussion.
Gee. And to top it all off you call people’s outrage about racism a “tantrum.”
From your earlier comments, you seem to be under the impression that by and large the effects of racism are a thing of the past, and that the problem with current black society is that they refuse to get over it.
Were I you, I’d uh… rethink the initial premise there. Actually I’d throw it out and burn it because it’s complete bullshit. Stop and LISTEN to some of the posters who are telling you that in fact, racism is a very serious problem today. Consider that many of the posters on this blog experience its effects in their daily lives in both significant and insignificant ways, and that you do not, so you really do need to just shut up and LISTEN. And for God’s sake, quit pointing fingers at black society and blaming them for… whatever. Why is it that so many white people come here and instead of reading or comprehending always write about What’s Wrong With Black People? That’s not the point of this blog. All that stuff about “black people do this” is a transparent attempt to derail discussion about racism and avoid any self-examination of white privilege.
So don’t do it. Don’t say, “This is what’s wrong with you black people.” The power structure in this society is maintained by white men, not PoC.
If you’re saying something racist? Intent does not matter. Right now you’re too busy demanding people actually dealing with racism in their everyday lives pay attention to your pain to even listen to them talk about theirs in a space meant for just that purpose. Which really says volumes about white privilege as it manifests itself in day to day life.
o rly?
http://edition.cnn.com/2008/US/04/02/judge.whites.out/
Was that racist? Does intent matter?
(My answer, BTW, is no. It was silly and disrespectful, but I don’t think he did it because he hates white people.)
And that has what to do with your behavior here? Keep on derailing rather than listening. It is the only reason you’re here.
“Stop and LISTEN to some of the posters who are telling you, in fact, that they have been personally accused of racist intent by PoC where none exists. Consider that many endure these baseless allegations in thier daily lives in both significant and insignificant ways, and you do not, so you really need to just shut up and LISTEN.”
Wow. You got accused of being a racist. Look what I found in a section YOU obviously didn’t even bother to read -
http://www.amptoons.com/blog/archives/2005/12/02/how-not-to-be-insane-when-accused-of-racism/
And yet, you wonder why a lot of PoC really don’t give a shit when white people say that they aren’t being heard. You want to talk about someone of color didn’t make it easy for you because they accused you of racism, and you can’t have the privilege of taking that day off from being white? Guess what, welcome to the happy world of minorities who DON’T EVER get that same privilege that you do.
And, strangely, this topic title is so appropriate. This should be put in a list of “What not to do when talking about racism.”
I smell a new meme! ^_^
Done! ^_^
Oh noes! The Black people are silenzincg me!
How does that work in practice. Say you’re Black and you want to silence Tom. How do you go about it? Because I’d really like to know.
Angel - I lul’d.
Phelps:
After reading through this entire discourse, I feel compelled to ask you this…
How does one define racism? (Obviously there are the various dictionary definitions, but are you familiar at all with the Sociological definition?)
If you carefully unpack the Sociological definition of racism (which is far more than an benign disposition of an individuals mind or harboring bad attitude toward people of a different hue) you will have a better framework for reading/understanding the comments made. All too often the forest is missed for the trees.
Many of my fellow white cohorts do not know the fine balance of disagreement with a point of view and disregarding the experiences of another. You must see and know this if you and the other parties involved in this discussion want leave in better condition than when you came.
Phelps has said a lot of dumb things here. But, one of the things I’m hearing him say reminds of one of the things I heard Senator Obama say in that wonderful speech in Philadelphia. And, that is that there are 2 sets of grievances here, both of which must be acknowledged if there is to be any progress in the discussion on race. The way I understood it, the Senator said that white people must understand and acknowledge the pain and anger PoC feel as a result of racism. However, in addition to that, he suggests that PoC must also understand and acknowledge the pain and anger that white people feel when asked to bear the burdens of affirmative action, which, in their minds, are unfairly imposed. It’s a basic mediation technique. Each side in a negotiation expresses their understanding of the other side’s position. Once that is done successfully, the negotiation proceeds more smoothly. I don’t want to derail the discussion. If you think I’m off point, feel free to disregard my post. But, I’m very curious to see what the folks on this site think about the Senator’s suggestion, if I understood it correctly.
PoC must also understand and acknowledge the pain and anger that white people feel when asked to bear the burdens of affirmative action, which, in their minds, are unfairly imposed.
I understand their anger. I acknowledge it. It’s perfectly understandable that they would feel this way.
Because they’ve been inculcated since birth with misinformation. Which means that, in addition to acknowledging their anger, we need to let them know why their anger is inappropriate. It’s rooted in the false assumption on their part that they don’t benefit from racism. And until they stop being angry about the wrong damn things, they’re not going to stop inflicting the pain and anger of racism on PoC, which means none of us gets anywhere.
You need to be careful about citing the words of any politician, BTW, when you’re talking about controversial social issues. Their job is to sound even-handed and fair, and not rock the boat. But the plain sad truth is, white people are the primary beneficiaries of racism. PoC are the primary targets of it. The burden of pain and anger is not equal, no matter that Barack tried to make it sound that way. And between whites and PoCs, it’s not the PoCs who haven’t tried to understand.
Also–”the burdens” of affirmative action? White people don’t bear those burdens. White women are the biggest beneficiaries of affirmative action. I don’t feel burdened by the fact that businesses have a real reason to consider my talents and skills instead of dismissing them. I feel pretty damn good about it. And this law means that I get to work with talented nonwhite folk too? Excellent. All affirmative action does is make a start toward undoing the affirmative action that white men have been receiving for hundreds of years.
“o rly?
That’s what we are down to? Ok, AIDS, Ebola, Malaria, and Okra. ”
Let me guess. . . .you still believe the old threadbare lie that AIDS originated in Africa?
Enlighten yourself here:
http://kathmanduk2.wordpress.com/2008/04/01/the-origins-of-aids-part-1/
http://kathmanduk2.wordpress.com/2008/04/01/the-origins-of-aids-part-2/
Two theories are aimed at the origins of AIDS. The “cut-hunter” theory, which falls flat on its face. OR, the OPV theory. The OPV theory which contends that AIDS more likely originated in the Hilary Koprowski’s polio vaccine experiment that was conducted out of Philadelphia. Those who want more information on this theory should check out the book, “The River: A Journey Back to The Source of HIV and AIDs” by Edward Hooper ( Penguin, 2000). The OPV theory has more weight to it.
(Oh, and you probably won’t believe what I am stating, but a white man wrote the “River” book. Just so you know :)
__________________________________________
MALARIA:
Okay. Smallpox (Europeans brought it to Africans). Malaria (contracted from Africans by European slave traders.) Tit for tat.
__________________________________________
EBOLA VIRUS:
Outbreaks have occurred in Zaire and Uganda. Chances of your contracting Ebola occur when you visit an infected area during an outbreak. Ebola is not endemic to America. Unless you travel to Central Africa (Zaire, Uganda—DURING AN OUTBREAK), your chances of contracting Ebola are slim to none.
__________________________________________
OKRA:
Well, what can I say about okra, but. . . . . . .
hmm, hmm!
Good!.
White women and Affirmative Action:
http://kathmanduk2.wordpress.com/2008/03/16/white-women-and-affirmative-action-which-side-will-you-stand-on/
Phelps:
1. Pointing out that you had previously dodged my question does not answer the question.
2. I didn’t say you didn’t live in an interracial neighborhood and you damn well know I didn’t say that. I know nothing about you except that you are in denial about racism. People like you live EVERYWHERE.
[...] by Jack Stephens on March 24, 2008 Karnythia blogs at The Angry Black Woman on a recent blog post by Pat Buchanan: It’s this deliberate misinformation that bolsters the idea that black people are [...]
[...] Never, in my observations. In my internet scurryings just now, I had the good fortune to see this post at Angry Black Woman’s blog. ABW and Karnythia = two of my favorite [...]