Abortion Saved My Life
So, there’s this lawmaker out of Kansas who has lots to say about abortion. He’s currently best known for saying that women should plan ahead in case of rape and not expect their regular insurance to cover an abortion if they want one after being assaulted. And we could spend a lot of time going around about the flaws in his logic, or even hashing out when life begins, but really this post isn’t about any of that. This post is about the idea that anyone besides the pregnant woman should get a vote in what she does with her body after finding out about a pregnancy. For a host of reasons we as a society seem incapable of accepting bodily autonomy in women. This is reflected in the existence of street harassment, rape culture, and the million efforts to dictate whether or not women can control their own reproductive health. This attitude that women are shirking responsibility by opting out of having unwanted children has always boggled my mind.
But then I’m a mom, and I would never want my kids to grow up an unwanted child like I did. I love my kids more than I could ever explain & I do my best to give them the childhood I never had. Because I love them I had an abortion at 20 weeks. It was my 5th pregnancy (I had two miscarriages while I was trying to conceive my sons), and as it turned out my last. It was troubled from the start, I didn’t experience any of the normal indicators of pregnancy, so I found out when I was already 10 weeks along. No missed periods, in fact I was seeing an OB/GYN who specializes in treating fibroids and endometriosis in part because of the increased heaviness of my cycle. When we found out (that standard pregnancy test before surgery is necessary after all) I talked it out with my husband and we debated aborting (I got as far as the clinic), before ultimately deciding that we would try to make it work. My doctor advised me right off the bat that she wasn’t certain of a good outcome and that my pregnancy would be very high risk. I did exactly what she said in terms of taking it easy, because I wanted to give that child the best possible chance. But the intermittent bleeding wouldn’t stop and I knew that there was a high chance that I would not be able to carry to term.
I was taking an afternoon nap when the hemorrhaging started. Laying in bed with my toddler napping in his room, and waking up to find blood gushing up my body is an experience I wouldn’t wish on anyone. The placental abruption that my doctor had listed as a possibility was happening and I was going to have to do my best to take care of both of us. Mind you, my husband was at work and my not quite 2 year old sure couldn’t dial 911 for me so I had to make it to the phone & make arrangements for the sleeping toddler as well as his older brother before I could leave the house. I’ll spare you the gory details of my personal splatter flick, but suffice to say by the time I got to the hospital I probably needed a transfusion.
We all knew the pregnancy wasn’t viable, couldn’t be viable with the amount of blood I was losing, but it still took them hours to do anything, because the doctor on call didn’t do abortions. At all. Ever. No one on call that night did them in fact. A very kind nurse risked her job to call a doctor from the Reproductive Health Clinic who was not on call, and asked her to come in to save my life. Fortunately she was home, and even more fortunately she was able to get there relatively quickly. But by the time she got there I was in bad shape. Blood loss had rendered me borderline incoherent, an incredibly ignorant batch of students were fascinated by my case and more interested in studying me than treating me (one had the audacity to show me the ultrasound of our dying child while asking me if it was a planned pregnancy), and then there was the fact that I was on the L & D floor listening to other women have healthy babies while I bled out and the baby I had been trying to save died in my womb.
When the other doctor got there she had me moved to a different wing, got me painkillers (we were many hours into my hospital stay, and no one had bothered to give me anything for the pain despite my screams every time they decided to push on my abdomen or examine me for student edification), and then after checking my labs told us that I would need two bags of blood before she could do anything. Her team (a cadre of students who should all go on to run their own clinics) took turns coming in to check on me and my husband. They all kept assuring me that soon it would be over, and I would feel much better. My husband had to sign the consent for surgery (there was no question of me being competent enough to make decisions), and they took me away along with a third bag of blood to be administered during surgery.
What I didn’t know until much later was that the doctor took my husband aside while they were taking me back. She promised him she would do her best to save me, and then she warned him about the distinct possibility that she would fail. See, that doctor who didn’t do abortions was supposed to have contacted her (or someone else) immediately. He didn’t. His students didn’t either. Because I was their case and they weren’t done with me yet. Or something. Ostensibly there was a communication breakdown and they thought she had been notified, but given the talk about writing a paper on me that I do remember happening over my head? I doubt it. I don’t know if his objections were religious or not, all I know is that when a bleeding woman was brought to him for treatment he refused to do the only thing that could stop the bleeding. Because he didn’t do abortions. Ever.
My two kids at home were going to lose their mother because someone decided that my life was worth less than that of a fetus that wasn’t going to survive any way. Mind you, my husband told them exactly what my regular doctor had said, and the ER doctor had already warned us what would need to happen. But, none of that mattered in the face of this idea that no one needs an abortion. You don’t know what a woman who decides to abort needs, and you shouldn’t need to know in order to trust her to make the best decision for herself. I don’t care why a woman aborts, all I care is that she has access to safe affordable healthcare. I don’t regret my abortion, and I will never extrapolate my situation to mean that the only time other women should abort is when their life is at stake. Why? Well after the news hit my family that I’d aborted I got a phone call from a cousin who felt the need to tell me that I was wrong to have interfered with God’s plan. In that moment I understood that the kind of people who will judge a woman’s reproductive choices are the kind of people that I don’t want to be.
Hugs and rage in appropriate measure.
Wonder if this story is true.
Well I didn’t think I’d need to post a copy of my medical records along with my blog, but yes it is true. My case was even instrumental in changing treatment practices at that hospital.
You can post your medical records and there will still be doubters. I mean, there are still people who believe that our president is from Kenya and that he should be impeached for such a heinous crime. (Seriously??)
At any rate, Karnythia– I think it’s brave of you to post your experience, and thank you for sharing your story. I agree with Enid that doctors should all know how to perform abortions, regardless of personal beliefs, to save patients’ lives.
why? why would you wonder this? i’d like to hear what would make you doubt the account.
Who let Evil Hamster back in here?
I let that comment through because I knew people would ask that question. If she can’t act right she can go back to screaming at the moderation queue.
Would it be horribly rude of me to tell “Lynn” if that’s their real name where she can go with her doubts?
I’m glad you let it through. It’s important when talking about issues that people have very strong opinions on to remember that we all have a (scientifically demonstrated) tendency to filter information to fit our views. In the case of something viewed as a moral issue, there’s the additional tendency to believe that people on “our side” are the “good guys” and, thus, could never do anything bad.
That leads to one of three options, if we’re going to stick to our guns:
1) The people who do the bad things aren’t really “our” people (the “not real Christian” or “not real Muslim” argument).
2) The bad thing isn’t actually bad. This one is particularly dangerous, as it leads to destructive behavior spreading among a community.
3) As this poster did, to deny that the bad thing actually happened — either that it was made up entirely (as seems to be the suspicion here) or that it was done by the “other side” to discredit the “good guys”. (That claim is particularly easy to believe, since discrediting campaigns do happen.)
All we can do is try not to get too frustrated when people smugly stick to their guns in the face of a mountain of evidence to the contrary and to be on guard against the same behavior in ourselves.
Well put.
Oh shut up.
And I wonder whether your name is Lynn and you’re not really a white racist trolling the website to post racist slurs on black bloggers pages.
See how it works?
It must be difficult to accept that there really are abortions that fall outside of your “women who get abortions are single sluts who are refusing to accept responsibility” beliefs.
Isn’t that convenient, Lynn? Someone comes along with a story that messes with your view of the world (the one where only bad women who hate babies get abortions, not “real” women who already have babies to look after), and you doubt it’s true. I can’t vouch for Karnythia personally, as I’ve never met her offline, but I’m sure there are other people here who can. And I can definitely vouch for my cousin’s existence, and the truth of her story. She had a similar experience to Karnythia’s about ten years ago, except luckily for her the medical personnel involved were less negligent (also, in a different country) so she didn’t come as close to death as Karnythia did. It was still a lot closer than anybody in the extended family wanted for her, though.
These things happen, to real women, and they’re not something you can wish away by pretending some evil baby-hating lady on the internet made up a story about her imaginary brush with death. I’ve got photos on my fridge of my cousin’s two beautiful kids, neither of whom would have ever been conceived if she hadn’t had that abortion ten years ago. Seeing as how she’d be in a cemetery, her husband would be a widower, and my uncle and aunt would be coming up on the ten year anniversary of their eldest child’s death. My cousin exists,a nd she matters. Karnythia exists, and she matters too. These women and their medical emergencies are not going away just because you want to pretend they’re not real. Deal with it.
You’re kidding, right? Right?
Thanks for sharing this story, as I am sure there are others out there, it takes a lot to share and let others know that they are not alone.
I had a similar situation happen to me, but I was 5 months pregnant and thankfully at a hospital with an OBGYN that did not hesitate to go over my options with me. Basically the options were to see if labor would progress and my body would expel the fetus on its own. (There were no signs of life in the fetus)I had not yet lost enough blood for a tranfusion to be needed but the doctor warned I could get to that place before too long. Then the other option was an abortion. The doctor did not sway me one way or the other and gave me a few minutes alone to decide. I wish so much that every woman had the care I did that day. Even the ones that are making this decision that are not in immediate danger.
I’m sorry that you had to experience any of that. It baffles me that the doctors would refuse to do an abortion. Since not doing so endangered your life on the behalf of a child that would not live regardless of what was going to be done. Ideologies are suppose to save people, not the other way around.
Thanks for posting this.
I can’t imagine how hard it was to share this, as I’m sure it brought up memories that you would probably rather not revisit. I love you for having such a huge heart. I honestly cannot understand any doctor refusing to provide whatever care a patient might need. Did they not take an oath to First do no harm? Harm was certainly caused in your case, and if not for that wonderful nurse, it would have been a tragedy. Thank God you’re alright now, and your children still have their mother!
I could just cry and cry and cry and never get out enough tears for how fucking awful and horrifying and frustrating this is.
I am so sorry. I am glad your children still have their mother.
Thank you for sharing this. It made me cry, mostly with rage.
I was going to comment anyway, but now I am stuck on the naivete of “wonder if this story is true.” I believe every word and then some. Lots of people have similar stories, and I know some of them, and that’s what I came here to say.
This story is horrifying and indicative of how this country places womens’ lives at the very bottom of the priority list. I am glad you came through it okay and are still around to help your sons to grow up to be better people than that doctor who didn’t do abortions, ever.
My (now ex-)wife had a bad pregnancy once too. It was about a year after our son was born. Since she was a kidney transplant patient, we kept a close watch on her medical issues. She was having trouble and her doctor had scheduled a D&C for Monday morning. On Saturday night, she started bleeding badly, so I drove her to the local hospital. By the time we arrived, she had lost 3 units of blood.
I don’t know why anyone would “schedule” a D&C when there are known problems with the pregnancy.
Glad you are doing OK.
BILL
Horrifying. There is an account of something very similar in Delany’s _Motion of Light on Water_. Because he was black, and his wife was white, and they were both very young, it was assumed her miscarriage was an attempt to abort and they were treated accordingly. I used to use it as a set text in class.
oh my god, this is horrifying… Best of luck to you.
I must admit, I am typically pro life (though this is a debate that has been raging because, frankly, I hate the way in which many pro life folks act on their beliefs). But sweet mother of heaven, that is a horrible experience to have happened to you. I am so so so sorry that you had to go through that. I must agree with John P. that my views are to save, not to harm. I echo the tears of frustration and pain on your behalf, I can’t fully comprehend this experience emotionally, and am so sorry that you had to go through it. And damn med students who care more about their grade than the people they serve.
I am so sorry you went through this.
It is always incredulous to me how anti-choice supporters think that the decision to have an abortion is easy for anyone. I have never met a woman who had an abortion who didn’t agonize over the decision, pray for guidance, ask their friends, keep it quiet because they knew the shame they would have to face after the fact. The decision is ALWAYS personal and it should remain that way.
It is deplorable that women’s health issues are something people can debate!
To me this is not an abortion. Let me explain what I mean. I’m against abortion. But before everybody wants to shoot me, let me explain my thoughts on this situation. In this case, the mother was going to die and the baby was already dead. In my mind, taking the child to save the mother in a case like this isn’t abortion, even though it is called that. I am not against abortion in cases like this. I do agree that it is a woman’s personal decision and should be.
However, sometimes doctors are wrong. That’s where my issue comes in. Some women abort because the doctor tells them the child might have down syndrome or some other disability like that. To me, that’s wrong and not something I would do. I know of people who were told that and carried the baby to term and their child was fine with no disabilities. I think in a case like that, abortion shouldn’t be an option. I also know of people (most likely just a few) who have said they found out they were pregnant and didn’t want children so they were going to abort the child. That also to me is wrong when there’s so many women out there who want desperately to have kids and would love to adopt.
On another note, I also know of a woman that was raped and who herself had a heart condition and wanted to abort. Because of her heart condition the baby wouldn’t be able to survive anyway because of all of the medications that she was taking for her heart. And the rape obviously was an issue too in determining whether or not she wanted to try and keep the child. She couldn’t find a doctor that would abort the pregnancy. A few weeks later, the baby died because of all of the meds in her system, then a D&C was scheduled and she got rid of the baby. She is one of my good friends and she asked my opinion in all of this because she knew that I’m against abortion and she herself was against it too. I told her that she needed to make that decision for herself and I would support her either way.
I also know of another woman that had a placental abruption at 6 months into her pregnancy. But in that case, the doctor did an immediate C-section and was able to save the baby and the mother. The baby is now 19 years old and the only medical issue she has is asthma.
I guess with saying all of that, there are two sides to every story. And in certain circumstances I think abortion is warranted. So I’m not really against abortion itself or a woman having the right to choose what to do with her own body. But I am against people deciding that a child shouldn’t live because its going to have a disability, or because they just don’t want to be pregnant. There are those people out there believe it or not.
Filmgal, a lot of people feel the way you do about abortions (it’s okay if in this situation [like rape, which is apparently not a black/white issue for some reason] but not in others, and disabled babies are not always disabled/blessings in disguise/people too). BUT: the important points are that there is the ability to choose, access, and be safe in having an abortion, regardless of what others may believe is right for you.
“That also to me is wrong when there’s so many women out there who want desperately to have kids and would love to adopt.”
There is an incredible number of children available for adoption in the United States. The problem is that many people who say they would love to adopt or are desperate for kids have a laundry list of criteria that must be met before they consider a child. They may also demand instant gratification for their wants and chose search outside the country for places with more expeditious–and potentially corrupt–adoption processes.
As a result, there is a surplus of children who are passed over because of their age, ethnic origin, the presence of siblings, special needs, or other reasons. It would be more prudent to encourage people to adopt these kids who are actually here and in need of love right now than it would be to tell a woman she should solve the problem of an unwanted pregnancy by remaining pregnant for the benefit of a hypothetical stranger who may not want her child anyway.
choose to search^
I agree 110%, Digital Coyote. It isn’t one woman’s place to serve as a surrogate womb for another woman who can’t have children. I am a woman who has struggled with infertility, so I know the pain and frustration, but I would never deny a woman the right to decide what to do with her body and her pregnancy.
Exactly. It’s not as if there’s a shortage of kids who need good homes. There’s a shortage of people willing to adopt anything beyond a white baby and go through the long process.
filmgal: I understand your feelings about bringing up a child with a disability, but i note you don’t say you did this. For every person who is glad they did, there are others for whom it wrecked their lives, and the lives of their children.
Bringing up a child with a disability is hard work and can be very expensive. Bringing up a child who will never grow to adulthood is a life time’s work.
I admire people who choose it, but I would never force it on someone– particularly in a country with such poor social support.
As far as adoption is concerned: women are not baby carriers.
Hey filmgal, Thank you for being willing to see that even though you are against abortion yourself, that women have the right to make their own choices.
No one has addressed your story about your friend with the heart problem but I think it’s really significant. Because, in a sense, your friend did have an abortion. Yes, she was just taking medication that she needed to stay healthy (or to stay alive, even), but she did take it knowing that it would probably kill the baby. In some countries, that is already a criminal act. Knowingly endangering a fetus could honestly have gotten her thrown in jail if she were in a country where abortion were 100% illegal. And therefore, if people succeeded in re-criminalizing abortion in this country, that kind of thing would start happening here.
I just say that to point out that everyone – yourself included – should be pro-choice, because we should never put a woman in a situation where she has to choose, say, between setting aside needed medication and risking her own death, and a long prison sentence for murder. Because there will always be these medically necessary abortions; and to prevent what you might call unnecessary ones, we should help women prevent those unwanted pregnancies in the first place, instead of punishing them for those pregnancies.
Shared this on Facebook. Hopefully someone will read it and think a little bit harder before assuming “abortion = NO, ALWAYS”.
Thank you so much for sharing this no doubt extremely painful memory. Like everyone else, I’m so glad you made it through.
In a few days, it will be the one-year anniversary of my first daughter’s death. Last week would have been her first birthday.
Pre-ecclampsia took over from the gestational hypertension that I’d been dealing with all pregnancy at week 24. I went into the hospital where my husband and I agreed (much to my OBGYN’s obvious relief) that while I was going to hold the pregnancy as long as I could, as soon as it reached a certain point of risk to me, it was operation time. I held onto her for a week before they had to do an emergency C-section, and she spent all 11 days of her life in the NICU. She was too damn small to have really stood much of a chance, but that’s a different rant for me, namely on the blithe assumption by the pro-life crowd that ’20 weeks is viable’.
I don’t know what the laws are in this state for this kind of thing, but I never doubted that while my doctor would do his best to save both our lives, my life was the higher priority. I never had to be afraid that I was ‘too far along’ in the pregnancy for him to be willing to end it if my life started to be threatened. Then again, we were lucky to have an OBGYN who specialized in pre-ecclampsia, so I’m pretty damn sure he’s lost patients to it. His relief at our telling him that my life had to take priority was naked enough to tell me that he’d lost at least one patient to a refusal to end a pregnancy, though this is all guessing on my part.
In a few months, we’ll be trying again. We know that I’m a high-risk pregnancy patient now, and hopefully that will give us an edge this time. But still. I cannot risk pregnancy without the assurance that abortion will be available to me. I stared HELLP syndrome in the face; they put me on magnesium to prevent seizures. I *cannot* risk pregnancy without the ability to also end that pregnancy at *any* time, because my life will likely literally depend on that.
Thank you for sharing your story.
Your story clearly explains why doctors need to be trained in how to do abortions, and be willing to do so despite their personal opinions.
@filmgal
I don’t want to be pregnant. I’m one of “those people” you speak of. I don’t want to be pregnant because I’d be a horrible parent. I have bipolar in the family, might well be myself, and I’m depressive. There’s also various genetic disorders, and alcoholism. I take all precautions needed with my partner, because while having no sex is the only way not to be pregnant for sure, I should not have to limit my relationships in any way. But sometimes, shit happens. Condoms break, I’m “not old enough” to get a tubal, and so forth. I have no qualms in getting an abortion rather than subjecting a child to my poor parenting skills, and quite probable mental and physical health issues.
You don’t know why any one does not want to be pregnant, and *why* really should not matter. All that matters is that they do not choose to, and by stating that people who do not want to be pregnant should not be able to make that choice? You are not agreeing with “that it is a woman’s personal decision and should be.”
I found this entry through a link shared on Facebook, and I thank you for posting this. I have shared it on Facebook as well, as your story perfectly illustrates why I am pro-choice. It has nothing to do about whether I, personally, believe abortion to be right/wrong/a sin/whatever. It has everything to do with believing that no one else’s moral judgement should ever affect a woman’s accessibility to healthcare. Ever. Period.
When we take the road of “abortion should only be allowed for reasons x, y, and z” we leave “necessity” up to the interpretations of others who may have no concern for the best interests of the pregnant woman.
Though I do not know you, I am glad that your life was saved.
As Jessi said, I do not know who you are but I an grateful your life was saved and glad your children have a loving mother to come home to. That being said- I am infuriated by the response of the med students. For you to only be looked at as some sort of daily lesson for those med. students (Apparently they were taking “How to Kill an Innocent Mother 101) enrages me.
Thank you for sharing your story.
I believe it was good that you tried to keep the pregnancy going, but in the end, you made the right choice. I had a similar issue where I had to abort, to stop an ectopic pregnancy from killing me. The doctor didn’t want to do it, so he botched the DNC, leaving me badly infected after.
I’m glad your children have their mother, and only you can know what you need. Good for you for making the right choice, in the end.
You all make some good points and I’m not trying to condemn anyone. I’m just saying how I feel and what my thoughts are. No, I never have raised a child with a disability. But why deny a child the right to live on a “chance” that they might be disabled? Those tests when you’re pregnant often produce false negatives. So why make a decision as great as this without knowing “for sure” if the test is right? I just can’t bring myself to do that. In fact, I never even took the test to find out if my son had any disabilities when I was pregnant because I wouldn’t have had an abortion anyway and I know that those tests are not as accurate as they are made out to be.
Also, having been pregnant, I know that a fetus has a heart beat in as early as 6 weeks gestation. That is usually around the time, or before the time that a woman finds out that she’s pregnant. To me, if it has a heart beat its alive. At that point, its not just a mass of cells.
I know of women who have had several abortions and essentially “use them as birth control”. That is one thing that upsets me about abortions. I know that there are all kinds of reasons for abortions and everyone has their own opinions. I’m not trying to offend anyone. I just think that having an abortion for no other reason than you may not be ready to have a child at this moment isn’t a good enough reason to end a life. I also know a few people that their parents contemplated abortion because the mom was older and already had other kids and didn’t think she could get pregnant anymore. They didn’t get that abortion and the child is still here and happy that their parents made the decision to bring them into this world. And the parents are glad that they chose not to have an abortion.
I realize that there are a lot of kids in our country that want to be loved and adopted. I too agree that more kids here should be adopted. I think people that want to adopt should be encouraged to adopt here as well. But honestly, I don’t feel that getting an abortion solves that problem either. That argument to me says, “its OK for me to take the life of this child because he or she won’t be loved anyway”. How do we really know that? I also know many people that have adopted children (in the US) that were happy to have a child to adopt. Some of them adopted older children.
When I said that its a personal choice I meant that I’m not going to condemn anyone that has an abortion because they felt it was necessary to do so. I just disagree with the decision to get one unless its a life threatening situation like it was for the woman that wrote this blog. Or unless the woman was raped.
I too agree that doctors should put aside their personal feelings and do what’s best for the patients. However, I don’t feel that all doctors should know how to perform an abortion. That would open the door to too many doctors encouraging women to have them that don’t really need or even want them. They do it now with c-sections.
Sorry if I’ve offended anyone. Its just my opinion and I know there are many women out there that feel the same way I do.
Filmgal sez: “However, I don’t feel that all doctors should know how to perform an abortion. That would open the door to too many doctors encouraging women to have them that don’t really need or even want them. They do it now with c-sections.”
By that logic, doctors would also be performing breast aspirations, tonsillectomies, and appendectomies just because they can.
(While I know that there is an over-reliance on C-sections these days, I don’t think you can compare it to a situation where the woman NEEDS the operation and can’t convince somebody to perform a perfectly legal operation because said person has religious or personal convictions.)
……
Full stop: A woman does not have to be pregnant if she does not want to be. End of story. It doesn’t matter if you think there are reasons to not abort. She doesn’t want to be pregnant. She has her reasons. These reasons can include: health of the existing children, her mental and physical health, her future mental and physical health, financial stability, inability to care for a child, timing, education, age and maturity, whatever. HER reasons. Not yours.
You keep presenting adoption as if it’s some easy win for the situation, when it still involves a bodily risk to the woman involved, and the emotional upheaval of going through the process of giving up an actual living baby. You can still be vulnerable to post-partum and may need counselling. It’s not an option that lacks consequences. Women KNOW adoption is an option and generally, by the time they’ve considered an abortion, they’ve triaged the adoption option too.
Finally, I don’t know of any women who have had abortions as birth control, and I’ve come to find out that a LOT of women have had them. While I don’t doubt there are some few misguided folks out there who may abuse a perfectly legal operation, that doesn’t represent the vast number of women who make their decisions responsibly and don’t deserve crap for it. No woman I know who has had an abortion thinks that waiting in a crowded room for up to eight hours so you can eventually see a counsellor, get a sonogram, and eventually get your uterus evacuated is easier than taking a pill, slipping a ring in, applying a patch, or using a condom. Some of the women who don’t may be poorly educated (often due to anti-choice propaganda and obfuscation), may be lacking funds to afford BC except in emergencies, or may have abusive partners who are regularly sabotaging their efforts.
And I would have a lot more sympathy for the anti-abortionists if contraception was free, and on demand from the moment a young woman reaches puberty.
“But honestly, I don’t feel that getting an abortion solves that problem either. That argument to me says, “its OK for me to take the life of this child because he or she won’t be loved anyway”. How do we really know that? I also know many people that have adopted children (in the US) that were happy to have a child to adopt. Some of them adopted older children.”
A. You might be setting up a strawman. No one said abortion will solve the problem of the large number unadopted children in America: only a serious increase in adoptions will do that. The people you know who have adopted domestically are not nearly enough to begin to address the problem of unwanted children in this country. By not carrying a fetus to term, a woman does not exacerbate the situation by contributing to the number of unwanted kids. A smaller pool of unadopted children makes the problem easier to tackle. I think we (humanity) get so caught up in what we think is right that, at times, we seem to forget not making a problem worse is occasionally the best we can do.
B. It sounds like you’ve conflated being adopted with being loved or having a positive outcome. Your arguments about what could be or might happen also don’t address what could happen if those same potential children are not adopted. Is it really right to put your child up for adoption knowing full well that their unique characteristics significantly decrease the chances of them finding a home? Does simply being alive trump any ill effects they may experience as a result of growing up in the system? How would potentially coming to see themselves as doubly unwanted (i.e. not by their mother or by anyone else who “desperately” wants kids) influence their own personal relationships or how they engage our society?
C. The moral comfort you seem to glean from the potential adoption of a potential child stands in stark contrast with the statistical evidence regarding the realities of adoption disparities involving actual children. That is “how..we really know” what happens to them. Insisting a woman be an obligate broodmare so strangers can sleep at night or grow their families is no moral high ground. Doing so without acknowledging the facts and potential negatives consequences associated with that stance puts it firmly in to unethical territory.
There are clinics where women and young girls can go to get free contraception. You don’t have to be poor for that to be the case. At least there are in California.
Maybe there needs to be more education regarding abortions then. I worked with a woman who had several abortions in the past and was pregnant. She told me the next day she was going to have an abortion. I asked her if something was wrong with the baby. She said “No, I just don’t want children. I’ve had several abortions. Its no big deal.” I asked her why she doesn’t have a tubal if she doesn’t want children and she said, “why would I do that when I can always get an abortion?” I’m sorry but that mentality just doesn’t jive with me. You can’t tell me that any woman who has had an abortion would agree with that mentality either.
I have a hard time believing that there wouldn’t be doctors that would perform abortions just because they could. And using a C-section is not flawed logic. There are doctors that would rather do a C-section so they can make it their golf game rather than wait 12 hours for the woman to have the baby on their own. There would also be doctors that would convince a woman who had any doubt about their pregnancy to abort it because its more money for them and easier for them than having a woman carry it to term. Possibly not the majority, but it could happen and probably would. It just seems that it would open more doors for doctors to not care about the woman’s health over their own pocket book. I’m not saying that abortion should never be an option. I’m just saying that I know of too many abuses of abortion for it to be a viable option for me. Plus, abortions can damage the body just as much as a woman carrying a baby to term and giving birth to the child.
Just for the record, I don’t agree with the lawmaker who says that women should plan ahead for an attack and not expect their insurance to cover abortions. To me that’s just ludicrous thinking oh his part and going way overboard.
I live in the UK and have a lot of American students: the shock on their faces when they discover their contraception is free or costs at most £10 a month.
I am curious who these US doctors are who perform abortions on a whim.
“In a 1992 national survey of residency directors, 47% of graduating chief residents said that they had never performed a single first-trimester abortion.”
“Between 1985 and 1991, the percentage of ob/gyn residency programs in the United States with routine training in abortion procedures declined by 45%. In a 1993 survey of Pennsylvania ob/gyn residency programs, less than ten percent required training in first trimester abortions.”
From here
contraception isn’t free where i live. unless i’m insured (which also isn’t free), it’s $30-60/mo, which is a significant bill. even when i’m insured, it’s $10 a pop, which frankly still isn’t an insignificant bill.
i’ve also had abortions and i can tell you: i certainly agree with your friend’s mentality. b/c she’s making her own decisions about her own body. which is, yanno, the point.
“I just say that to point out that everyone – yourself included – should be pro-choice, because we should never put a woman in a situation where she has to choose, say, between setting aside needed medication and risking her own death, and a long prison sentence for murder. Because there will always be these medically necessary abortions; and to prevent what you might call unnecessary ones, we should help women prevent those unwanted pregnancies in the first place, instead of punishing them for those pregnancies.”
Thank you for your post Amanda. I wasn’t trying to make this into a huge debate about abortion and an attack on me being against it. I was trying to say that there are other alternatives and that we need to educate all women and young girls on their options for unwanted pregnancies so that we don’t have women abusing abortions and trying to use them as birth control. I guess I just didn’t say what I meant in the correct way. The reason that I’m against abortion is because in my mind it is taking a life since a fetus has a heart beat as early as 6 weeks gestation. To me, something with a heartbeat is alive. However, I do know that there are circumstances where women have abortions for reasons of their own health and I also believe that we should be able to make decisions about our own bodies. So yes I’m torn and yes I’m contradicting myself. Its mostly because I do know that there are reasons that an abortion should be OK. But to me just blatantely having abortions because you can shouldn’t be the mindset of any woman and shouldn’t be the norm. So I wasn’t only saying that women should adopt out their baby if they don’t want children. I was also saying that if someone doesn’t want children that it should make sense to try and find ways to prevent it in the first place and weigh all of your options before getting pregnant and making the decision to abort the pregnancy. And that having abortions shouldn’t be the be all and end all. I think if more women felt this way and more women were educated as to other options and didn’t think of abortion as a method of birth control, there probably wouldn’t be as much opposition to it as there is now.
Your position is quite clear: you don’t think women should have abortions because you feel that, according to your moral compass, it’s wrong but find it to be an acceptable action in a few types of cases.
The arguments you make on the way to your point are troubling. It sounds like you’re suggesting women and girls aren’t doing/haven’t done all they can to prevent pregnancy because of how easy you think it is to get contraception. People get pregnant even when they do make an effort to take preventative measures. You assume women who choose to have abortions don’t know or haven’t thought about all of their options and that they’d make what you consider to be a morally correct choice if only they were “educated.” This is incredibly condescending. If the problem is being pregnant (unwanted or with a potentially abnormal fetus), the “alternatives” you’ve presented (adoption or keeping it/hoping there’s a small chance it might be normal) don’t solve that problem: you’re still pregnant with a fetus you don’t want to carry until you give birth.
Whether you like it or not, abortions are a form of birth control. They keep you from eventually giving birth like all other forms of contraception (when they work). If you’re not concerned with how people take their pills, wear their patches, get their shots, use their rings, the placement of their IUDs or diaphragms, which arm their implants are in, if they’re blatantly abusing condoms, etc., you shouldn’t be concerned about this method either. Other people’s birth control methods don’t personally affect you and it’s not your body. If you feel that an abortion is tantamount to taking life, don’t have one.
It’s logically inconsistent for you to say that you support women making decisions about their bodies while attempting to shame or pass judgment on them for doing just that. I’ll bet money this is why your position, not you, is being discussed so vigorously.
“It’s logically inconsistent for you to say that you support women making decisions about their bodies while attempting to shame or pass judgment on them for doing just that. I’ll bet money this is why your position, not you, is being discussed so vigorously.”
That is why I said that I’m torn. Because on one hand I feel that every woman should have the right to make their own decisions, but on the other hand, I don’t support abortion except under certain circumstances.
I didn’t mean to be condescending in my post. I was responding to someone else’s post that I quoted part of. She herself said that she thought people should be more educated. I could copy and paste her whole post if you missed it.
I’m also not trying to shame or pass judgement on anyone. I apologize if it came across that way. I’m simply stating my opinion.
That’s just it though: if you really feel every woman has a right to make her own decisions, you have to accept that what you wouldn’t do doesn’t matter and shouldn’t be part of their decision process. Your only concern should be that they did the best thing for them as individuals.
You’re entitled to your opinion. No one’s arguing that. But…
…when you say things like “But I am against people deciding that a child shouldn’t live because its going to have a disability, or because they just don’t want to be pregnant” (why shouldn’t people choose not to be in situations they can’t handle?), “having an abortion for no other reason than you may not be ready to have a child at this moment isn’t a good enough reason to end a life,” “I’m sorry but that mentality just doesn’t jive with me,” “You can’t tell me that any woman who has had an abortion would agree with that mentality either” (really clever way of saying that woman was unreasonable, btw), “Plus, abortions can damage the body just as much as a woman carrying a baby to term and giving birth to the child.” (variation on the old “you don’t know what’s really good for you”), “I was trying to say that there are other alternatives and that we need to educate all women and young girls on their options for unwanted pregnancies so that we don’t have women abusing abortions and trying to use them as birth control” (women aren’t educated or are abusing their options if they choose the one you don’t like?), “That also to me is wrong when there’s so many women out there who want desperately to have kids and would love to adopt” (do the “right” thing; don’t be so selfish),”just blatantely having abortions because you can shouldn’t be the mindset of any woman and shouldn’t be the norm” (not wanting to be pregnant if you don’t want to be is abnormal? really? do you insist people eat if they aren’t hungry?), “I think if more women felt this way and more women were educated as to other options and didn’t think of abortion as a method of birth control” (you on your own here again with women just aren’t thinking correctly) you are condescending, shaming, and passing judgment.
You do realize words like “abusing” and “blatantly” are loaded, right?
It is not consistent when you chase what you said above with “When I said that its a personal choice I meant that I’m not going to condemn anyone that has an abortion because they felt it was necessary to do so” because you are condemning them by saying their reasons–although they felt it necessary and right for them–weren’t good enough. This is a lot different than being “torn.” You don’t support a woman’s personal choice.
you have two children yes? would you die for them? how is this one any different i myself went through the exact same situation. my doctor the only doctor in my region not pro life did not once mention an abortion was needed the baby still very much alive after 4 weeks of massive hemorrhaging. and blood clot loss bigger than footballs. was hospitalized for a week to be stabilized. because my doctor( the only non pro life doctor in my region as above stated and the only doctor in my area to preform abortions) said even with massive blood loss there is always a 50/50 chance that child would be born alive. my SON was born 2 weeks later sadly not alive. I’m the kind of person the doctors in my area through their books away for, my pregnancy’s all abnormal. i’ve carried 11 children and sadly mother only 4.my one son just turned 5. during my pregnancy i was in a car accident my water slowly leaked out from 5 months till his birth during my pregnancy I had an ultra-sound which show not only was he sitting dangerously low but he had many spots that they said made it seem like he was either going to have down syndrome or not survive more then a week 8 months pregnant they suggested I abort because either he would die shortly after birth or he would be severely handicapped. I chose to keep him. by the way there isn’t a thing wrong with him. no downs syndrome or anything. my youngest now 5 months old has a very different father then my first 3 a very large child my average weight is 90lbs no matter how much I eat. carrying him was dangerous being that my insides are about the size of your average 4 year old girl. he was tearing things inside me busting my pelvis they wanted to induce me long before 7 months (still no abortion suggested)i hide from doctors to keep him inside me. he was born at almost 9 months and we are both in perfect shape. I am to believe doctors simply only suggest abortion when the child’s life is at risk. every time i have carried a child I risk dying for them. because inside my body or inside my home they are my children. it is my job to protect them with my life. and I would die to save anyone of them. now that I mother 4 children my husband and I have decided we do not plan to have any more children. our form of protection we simply do not sleep together (despite the fact that we both have high sex drives) until I save money to have a hysterectomy done. why because if we sleep together we risk having more children. because we both know how baby’s are made and are responsible. in short in my opinion you are wrong but I could be wrong because anything can happen. I would dearly love for you to show me how an abortion was right in your case. i’m very pro-life as you are not but i am also open to reasoning. it is not my job to pass judgement upon you and for your loss of your little loved one my heart aches for you. I also wanted to point out it is a doctors job to save both lives not just yours as they are under oath to do so.
So, the two children I would be leaving without their mother don’t count since they’re not in utero? My living sons need a living parent way more than they need a martyr to the pro-life cause.
Exactly. I’m always gobsmacked by the idea that as soon as children are born, somehow their needs no longer matter; the concept that mothers should routinely be willing to sacrifice themselves for a minute chance that another (currently non-sentient) child might live, without giving a single thought to the needs of the sentient, feeling, dependent children that already exist. Yeah, that’s real “pro-life”.
For the reasons you describe, I’m thinking “pro-life” should really be called “pro-birth-for-the-sake-of-birth.”
Yes, because everybody who goes through the same situation has exactly the same outcome, so clearly because you managed to survive, Karnythia would have done the same. It’s just like that one person who survived that crazy skin cancer, so clearly all other 100% of people who get that particular skin cancer will survive as well.
I, personally, think you’re extremely *irresponsible* for putting your existing children at risk of losing their mother, for your selfish desire to have more children even despite your high risk of death. I have adult friends who have had their mothers die when they were young, and it *always* affects them negatively and deeply, even into adulthood. I’m glad you’re done having kids now, but I’m boggled that you would place your desire for more children above your existing children’s need to have a mother, not just once, but multiple times. You say you would die for them, but apparently you aren’t willing to do everything you can to *survive* for them.
So exactly how much detail about karnythia’s pregnancy, general medical condition, and life in general do you need?
For people like that, everything is never enough. They’ll manage to find one single experience that they believe invalidates everyone else’s (just as ~the infamous~ did, by suggesting that because she didn’t die even though her situation was even worse (omg! clots the size of footballs! right), Karnythia jumped the gun and would have been perfectly fine if she’d just stuck with it).
If they can’t come up with even a single experience to use as a counter, they’ll resort to pretending that the OP was exaggerating, or misunderstood the doctors, or the doctors were wrong, or outright lying (as Lynn did above). Their attitude is like, “It wasn’t REALLY as bad as the OP said, because obviously the OP’s pregnancy wasn’t REALLY that risky, and even if it was, well, THE OP BROUGHT THE RISK OF DEATH UPON HERSELF WHEN SHE SPREAD HER LEGS, SO DEAL.”
You’re right. And I’m quite disturbed on how these folks also seem to think nobody should have sex unless it is specifically to make babies, ever, or something.
From her new reply below, “one of these doctors is a bold faced lyer and it seems to me your questioning the wrong doctor. your so concerned for they way you were treated shouldn’t all measure be take and all aspects looked at. to make sure the doctor in the wrong looses their practice so as not to be able to do this to another woman. my stating my own experience was to show that some can be almost exactly the same yet also different sooner or later it would come up as it did in another forum that you had to have been exaggerating your blood loss facts should be known it hasn’t happened to only you. ”
Claiming that their experience invalidates another’s: check. OP was exaggerating: check. my stating my own experience was to show that some can be almost exactly the same yet also different sooner or later it would come up as it did in another forum that you had to have been exaggerating your blood loss facts
Claiming that OP just misunderstood the doctors, and the doctors are lying anyway: check. did you question,fight to know the fact’s after the matter for actual details one of these doctors was feeding a bunch of lies
Did I call that or did I call that? They’re just so predictable. She even pulled out the timeworn “women are the victims of the evil abortionists who are on a mission to scrape out some fetuses, no matter how many lies they have to tell and how many innocent women they have to dupe”: in my opinion no matter what was to happen you were the victim … because being incoherent they are not allowed to let you make choices.
If there was an Anti-Choice Bingo card, we’d have just filled in about seven or eight squares.
The grammar was horrible; I had no idea what the fuck she was trying to say.
There are so many errors I can’t even begin to reply.
Yeah because your cases are automatically identical to karnythia’s because there were blood clots!
our form of protection we simply do not sleep together (despite the fact that we both have high sex drives) until I save money to have a hysterectomy done.<i?
Um…it's called contraception, lady. Or do you consider that abortion too? ::smh::
why because if we sleep together we risk having more children. because we both know how baby’s are made and are responsible.
Wow, congratulations. I know how babies are made too. Do I get a cookie?
in short in my opinion you are wrong but I could be wrong because anything can happen. I would dearly love for you to show me how an abortion was right in your case
She already did. You just weren’t reading it with an open heart. You’re more concerned about your opinions and the idea that you’re right in everything, not in the fact that karnythia almost lost her life.
1: I second what Karnythia and Robin said.
2: fuck you!
For someone who isn’t “judging,” your post is loaded with language that communicates the author should have set HER right to life aside and died for the child that would not have lived.
More to the point, until the medical community collectively recognizes a fetus as an entity imbued with the rights of humans, you are incorrect in your posit that the doctors involved had a duty to serve the needs of the fetus at the expense of the mother.
There’s no excuse for the disrespect and shoddy medical treatment you received. It’s really shameful. It’s time that people stopped viewing women (especially black women) as disposable means-to-an-end. Can you sue the doctor who wouldn’t treat you or is there some kind of abortion loophole legislation?
I could sue, but with the way malpractice law works the case could take years and cost us more than we’d get. It was never about money to me anyway. At the time I handled it by filing a report with the hospital board and their rep made assurances that they’d improve their patient treatment process.
Did you file a complaint with your stat’s medical ethics agency? Did you look into free legal assistance with suing the hospital?
What an awful experience, and how brave of you to speak of it with such candour. A woman’s body is her own. Period. I’m only one person, but you have all my support.
Good Lord.
I am glad you are alive and horrified at your treatment. I suspect the refusing treatment doctor’s actions are illegal. In our hospital, if you don’t perform abortions, you are required to seek help from your backup immediately. As a nurse, I commend the nurse who risked her job. I can tell you it probably was a no brainer for her to find a doc for you, i.e. she was determined to get help and damn the consequences.
For the record, we (the medical community) don’t ask for direction on who we “save” in a case like this. We work our hardest to save who we can. I’ve never heard, read or participated in a medical case where either could have survived but only at the cost of the other. That really doesn’t happen.
Karnythia was nearly killed by her medical treatment or lack thereof. She didn’t choose to have an abortion and this isn’t an elective abortion that so many seem to delight on speculating about. This was an unavoidable miscarriage; a spontaneous abortion: the baby is not viable and a physical cause ended the pregnancy. The baby sadly could not tolerate the loss of blood and passed away. A term baby would have died with this treatment-would you have faulted her then? The treatment then to end the dying was to perform a D&C or a D&E if needed. How can anyone logically, ethically and morally defend refusing treatment?
This situation is akin to throwing clots in the capillaries of the fingers and the circulation of blood stopping. The fingers die and gangrene threatens the patient’s life. Do the Pro-Fingerers aka Pro-Lifers demand the patient be denied surgical amputation to halt the spread of the gangrene and sepsis? Would ~infamous~? Perhaps Lynn would doubt the story and dismiss it out of hand. Can you see where I am going with this?
I feel as a Christian, a true Christian/human being/atheist/insert other belief system of your choice would sympathize with karnythia, express relief at her survival and regret for her loss. She went through something awful, something I hope no one else has to go through. We should send her hugs and comfort, not brickbats and sneering disbelief.
I am so sorry for what you had to go through and I grieve not just the loss of the baby, but your and your husband’s fear, pain and anger and the feelings of your children. God bless that nurse.
yours,
Tamera RN MSN
PS I’m mad about this. Really mad-I’m going to review our policies and make sure this can’t happen here.
*massive applause*
It’s kind of funny. There’s something almost pitiable in their desperation, their miserable little lives that they accidentally expose in hopes of convincing people that their way is the One True Way. No sex unless it’s to create babies? 12—pregnancies with four living kids? Sounds like motherhood is he only role, and it doesn’t sound—the way she’s described it—that’s it’s particularly alluring or attractive. Or tolerable.
How many of the millions of abortions performed in our nation each year do you suppose are as a result of the kind of catastrophic circumstances described in this situation? My guess is that it is very few. The majority are done because someone is uncomfortable or about to be inconvenienced. Sure it’s difficult to have a child. Ask your mother.
I’m glad my mother didn’t take motherhood so lightly as to think it was “an inconvenience” or merely “difficult”. She waited until she was ready, at age 28, before she had me, because she understood that motherhood was a lifelong commitment that would take everything she had physically, emotionally, financially, and psychologically, twenty-four hours a day, seven days a week, and it was a commitment that would never end. She took on that commitment only when she was truly ready, and I am grateful to her for doing that.
An inconvenience is what you experience when your grocery store is closed and you need milk, and then you have to drive a mile to another store. Being pregnant for nine months, going through birth, and then either parenting or dealing with the emotional fallout of relinquishing a child, is not an inconvenience.
I’ve had two abortions because I wasn’t ready for children at that time, my relationship was in chaos, and all I could get was minimum-wage jobs. I now have two children who were planned; we had them at a time when our relationship was stable, we could afford to provide a decent life for our children and live in a safe area with access to good schools, and I’m mature and educated enough to be the kind of patient, loving, dedicated mother that I wanted to be. The children I have now have a good life, and every day I am grateful that I was able to get the abortions I needed when I needed them, and now my children have the healthy life that every child deserves. If I’d been so stupid as to think of motherhood as simply being “an inconvenience” or “difficult”, I may have given birth to children who would have had miserable lives. Thankfully (and as my own mother counseled me), I took it more seriously than that.
I love my mother very much. Enough that I would rather have been aborted than have her go through having me and raising me against her will.
Thank God I was born after Roe v. Wade. I know that my mother did want me, did want to go through pregnancy, because if she didn’t she could have chosen not to have me.
I’m curious about something here. You are all claiming that a woman should have a right to choose because its her body. But yet you are condemning the “infamous” because she chose not to have an abortion in any of the times that she was pregnant. Its her body and her choice right? So what difference does it make whether or not you agree with her decision? That’s what you’ve been asking me. Aren’t you doing now exactly what you said I was doing by my saying that I was against abortion? Aren’t you condemning her for her decision that you disagree with? Shouldn’t “its her body and her choice” go both ways?
She’s welcome not to have an abortion, but she shouldn’t be pretending that her decision to risk her children being left motherless is somehow more noble or correct than someone else choosing to get an abortion in the same situation. It’s the sanctimony and self-righteousness that really irritates me, because her actions *aren’t* laudable or kind to her existing children.
They are condemning her because she thinks that just because she didn’t die, nobody else should have abortions. She can have not-sex, not-abortions, hysterectomies, or any other form of not-contraception, and to her heart’s content.
Disregard that last “and”. It was a typo.
How do you know that the nurse risked her job by calling another doctor?
Also how do you know that your case was instrumental in changing practices at that hospital?
John, we don’t know if the case was instrumental in changing policy at the offending hospital. However, it will be instrumental in changing policy at my hospital if need be.
John, I will eat my underpants if she didn’t risk her job. The way hospital chains of command work in the United States ( statistically, there must be exceptions, but I’ve never heard of any in 26 years)is that the nurse calls the doc on call. If nurse doesn’t feel the decision is right, she or he contacts next authority higher up, and so on. This process is fraught with with such political weight you had better be damn sure you have a leg to stand on before you stick your neck out. If you merely disagree with a doc and sic the attending on him/her, you risk written reprimands permanently in your work file.
Now the fact the nurse called a non-hospital doc (but who most likely had privileges there) who was not a supervisor of the original doc and was not on call is totally off the scale. I would wonder if she wasn’t fired. It may have been only that karnythia’s danger was clear in retrospect and the refusing doc sanctioned in res media.
Most places have a M&M; a Morbidity and Mortality conference to discuss cases that went pear-shaped. No one is allowed to attend except the doctors so that “honest and effective communication is achieved”. Basically, they can get yelled at without losing face in front of the ancillary staff. This might have saved the nurse’s job. Speculation,I know.
However, knowing hospital policy, I can assure you there was a huge element of risk. One of our nurses lost her job after a family member, not the patient, remarked the nurse grabbed the patient’s chin during labor so quickly it looked as though the nurse slapped the patient. When our assistant head nurse OVERHEARD that, she fired Jen on the spot. Jen got her job back (with a year’s back pay!) after union intervention.
every women risks death when they carry a child. because as above I have stated anything is possible. no one can say if your child would have lived or died or yourself lived or died for that matter. but no one will know if your child would have lived. getting up in the morning and going to work we risk death. eating poorly people risk death. are those people not caring about the children they have by risking death?. every day a person is alive is another day of risking death. don’t believe me? my father died loading horses into a stock trailer by the highway a big rig drive by the rear axle fell off the truck hit a power pole the pole fell hit him and killed him. should people as parents not be working with horses because it makes them so un pro life to be risking death and leaving a child with one less parent? I asked you to explain to me how your case is so much more rare than mine or many other women for that matter and why you and you alone are the only case i myself have ever heard of having and abortion done to a well developed and alive child. I survived intense blood lose yet here I am today, mothering every one of my children. and why because it wasn’t my time to die. I’m asking you to explain to me why your case was so extremely rare that ending this child’s life was necessary or allowed for that matter. so I may better understand exactly why it is you are bashing a doctor for “risking your life” which in my opinion is highly unlikely but as stated before I could be wrong please elaborate open my eyes to why I should be angry with this doctor for not doing his job.
Don’t pretend that all forms of risk are equivalent. Your chances of dying because you choked on your breakfast cereal or walked across the street at a crosslight are far different than your chances of dying during pregnancies that you already know in advance are very high-risk. And yes, if my choice was losing my partner or quite possibly leaving my children motherless, I’d tell my partner to go stuff it. But that would be because I place my children’s welfare above everything else, including their father, and I won’t do anything excessively high-risk that would endanger me as their mother. It’s the same reason I stopped doing bouldering (rock climbing less than 10 feet from the ground) without safety gear, don’t do drugs or smoke or drink to excess, and eat well. I’m not going to risk myself, as their mother, because they deserve to have me around. That’s part of being a good mother.
There’s also a vast difference between a child who is here, thinking and sentient and aware of your presence, losing you as their mother, and a fetus being terminated. That fetus is not self-aware and will not grieve for you. You obviously consider an in-utero child and a “born child” to be the same thing, but they’re not the same thing in any functional way other than both carrying your genes. So yes, stepping in front of a bullet to save an existing child is a very different act than sacrificing yourself for a fetus.
my children and I are living proof that even when doctors insist that death is certain. there are chances they are wrong. my son had a 1 in 5 chance to live he just turned 5 i’ll never spend my nights crying about the what ifs had I chosen different. I am a firm believer that if its not 100% fact death will happen then there is still that chance of life and it is not a persons right to end it. a c section is the normal approach it could have saved you both. your just coming off as selfish and as a mother myself I don’t want to view you in such a way. if they preformed as you say an abortion im doubting that is what actually what was done if it happened then most likely your child was lifeless before hand. just living life is risking death if i’m a bad parent for being alive and risking death walking across the street eating when at home alone with my children and risking choking to death ect ect then we are all bad parents and life must be stopped altogether. if my life was meant to end it was meant to end and nothing can stop that.
“its her body and her choice” go both ways?” yes it should but it appears they think if you have alive children outside your womb it is different then an alive child inside. i see risking my life to save my child inside me as no different then stepping in-front of a bullet to save one outside either way id risk leaving a child parent-less to save their life am i not correct? would stepping in-front of a bullet to save my child as apposed to letting that one die because I have other children. make me an unkind mother? that child was going to die anyways right I have other children to think of……………this sounds like your logic
our form of protection we simply do not sleep together (despite the fact that we both have high sex drives) until I save money to have a hysterectomy done.<i?
Um…it's called contraception, lady. Or do you consider that abortion too? ::smh::
I have 2 beautiful sons thanks to contraception also have carried many more but sadly lost them on the pill on the shot with an iud condoms still I got pregnant……the doctors even told me if I merely got my tubes tied I would only be risking a tubal pregnancy. not having sex is the only 100% way to be sure I have no pregnancy's in my future until a hysterectomy is done. everyone knows all forms of birth control are not 100% effective. and I couldn't be more happier that mine didn't work.
I, personally, think you’re extremely *irresponsible* for putting your existing children at risk of losing their mother, for your selfish desire to have more children even despite your high risk of death. I have adult friends who have had their mothers die when they were young, and it *always* affects them negatively and deeply, even into adulthood. I’m glad you’re done having kids now, but I’m boggled that you would place your desire for more children above your existing children’s need to have a mother, not just once, but multiple times. You say you would die for them, but apparently you aren’t willing to do everything you can to *survive* for them.”
I did not desire for more children as a matter of fact they just happened to be blessed upon me as stated not everyone has sex just to make children I tried all forms of birth control but my forms of birth control stop at ending a life that didn’t ask to be. as a responsible adult even tho i was a young married teen. not allowed to have my tubes tied as my husband refused consent. I knew the risks of having an active sex life with my husband could get me pregnant, but was merely trying to please my husband. as active sex is good for a relationship. sex was risking my life to as it does many women because pregnancy could kill anyone not just me. the funny thing is they told me when I was very young it was impossible for me to carry children. so was being in a relationship and pleasing my husband a bad choice on my part to I could have left him oh but then I would be a bad parent for risking they may loose their father right? I was just placed in a position where I had to do everything I could as a mother to protect my child as all my children were well loved long before birth. as stated they merely told me I could die if I had children yet here I am today very healthy. I trusted my instincts as a mother. and I will never regret my choice’s. every day I am alive my children could loose their mother once again I say anything can happen. if it happens it happens maybe no one should have children because anyone of us at any time no matter what the circumstance could die and leave our children parent-less at any time from pretty much anything.
and to be honest its not your facts I want nor is it actually you in my question but both doctors involved as you were incoherent. did you question,fight to know the fact’s after the matter for actual details one of these doctors was feeding a bunch of lies and I want more detail so as I can decide who. in my opinion no matter what was to happen you were the victim you answer all questions in a way that says you knew what was going on so were you able to comprehend what was going on? or were you not? because being incoherent they are not allowed to let you make choices. if i had been giving an abortion without knowing full well the nitty gritty i would be asking I would be wanted to know if they made the right decision with my child’s life and mine. one of these doctors is a bold faced lyer and it seems to me your questioning the wrong doctor. your so concerned for they way you were treated shouldn’t all measure be take and all aspects looked at. to make sure the doctor in the wrong looses their practice so as not to be able to do this to another woman. my stating my own experience was to show that some can be almost exactly the same yet also different sooner or later it would come up as it did in another forum that you had to have been exaggerating your blood loss facts should be known it hasn’t happened to only you. many have had lost children but not many of us experience the horror of such a large amount of blood loss. I’m backing what I do know and merely asking for you to open my eyes to what I don’t see.
Punctuation, lady. Learn it!
So of the two doctors Karnythia saw that day, the one who was letting her bleed to death slowly and not even giving her freaking painkillers is the good doctor. But the doctor who saved her life is the bad doctor and must be a “lyer”.
Lady, what colour is the sky in your world?
Shaddup already, you ignorant, religion-poisoned babbling moron.
this is your brilliant rebuttal?
Abortion can cause infection, hemorrhage, bowel injuries, clotting disorders, and other potentially fatal complications. Also, amniotic fluid, fetal tissue, or air can get into the woman’s bloodstream and cause an embolism, which can be fatal
was she not risking her children being mother-less either way?
Actually, having an abortion is significantly LESS risky to a woman’s life than giving birth. The statistics make that very clear.
And you have those hard and fast statistics? You have studied and compiled based on controlled numbers? Every abortion related maternal death has been reported to you as well as maternal deaths due to childbirth? People can do anything they please with random statistics. Sorry, don’t buy it.
Barbara: Please see http://journals.lww.com/greenjournal/abstract/1985/05000/causes_of_maternal_mortality_in_the_united_states.1.aspx
“Among 2475 maternal deaths that occurred in the United States from 1974 to 1978, 408 were related to pregnancies with abortive outcomes, and 2067 were related to other causes.”
also:http://journals.lww.com/greenjournal/Abstract/1990/12000/Maternal_Mortality_in_the_United_States,_1979_1986.13.aspx
if you can get into the article, it details the deaths from birth and from abortive procedures. The outcome is roughly the same as above: abortion widely defined accounts for 16.48% of maternal mortality. Actually going through with a pregnancy carries the other 83%. Raincitygirl is correct.
I have not studied and compiled those numbers, however the South Australian Department of Health has done that for me, for the state in which I live. All terminations of pregnancies (for whatever cause) in South Australia are required to be reported, minus any identifying information, so that we have those statistics. They are readily available.
Unfortunately, I don’t have the time right now, but I will come back to this when I do :-)
Barbara? You’re the one making the argument, you bring the sources. But it’s long been established by non-anti-choice loons that pregnancy is significantly more dangerous than abortion, and anybody who doesn’t live in a hole would know this. Also, your comment that you’re guessing pretty much translates into: you’re so uninformed it’s kind of frightening.
Theinfamous, let me get this straight: everywhere here who doesn’t share your viewpoint is either ‘lying’ or uninformed?
One thing I’ve noticed is that liars often believe everyone else to be a ‘lyer’ even when they’re the only ones with facts and supporting evidence.
I don’t have top bring the sources. I didn’t make the claim.
Christ on a pony. This is YOU:
“How many of the millions of abortions performed in our nation each year do you suppose are as a result of the kind of catastrophic circumstances described in this situation? My guess is that it is very few. The majority are done because someone is uncomfortable or about to be inconvenienced. Sure it’s difficult to have a child. Ask your mother.”
Ah, I see the old anti-choice standard of the frivolous abortion-haver has arrived!
Here’s a clue, Babs: if you want to find out the circumstances of abortions, you could look it up, but then you wouldn’t be able to feel so superior about spreading lies, especially in the face of a woman who nearly died.
then you wouldn’t be able to feel so superior about spreading lies, especially in the face of a woman who nearly died.
Sure she would. She’d just dismiss the reasons as not being good enough. We’re talking about a woman who thinks that nine months of pregnancy, childbirth, and then raising a child is “an inconvenience”. If she can minimize the experience of pregnancy and parenting to being “an inconvenience”, then she can minimize anything. They’re coming from a place of privilege where they *can* think of pregnancy and childraising as something less than the all-consuming, constant, overwhelmingly hard endeavor that it is, and because they’re incapable of realizing that others have unique experiences that don’t automatically reflect their own, they can dismiss anything that doesn’t fit into their personal life or personal worldview.
To all of the people here presenting anecdata, so called exact same circumstances but with different results: stop, unless you are Ms. Kendall, have lived her life or were there none of you have the right to claim her story is false. I’m willing to bet none of you have medical degrees or are initimately familiar with hospital policies and procedures where she lives. I’m sure none of you have enough facts to fill a thimble other than what you feel is truth as it should apply to everyone else.
Your worldview =\= everyone else’s worldview. This is something you should know as adults. Stop imposing your world views and anecdote as fact, stop calling people liars andlearn to spell while your at it.
Reading your comments are sickening and has only reinforced my pro-choice stance one-thousand fold. May no one ever treat you all in the callous & non-empathic way in which you all have treated Ms. Kendall.
ABW- I hope these folks get dropped into mod queue post haste.
So of the two doctors Karnythia saw that day, the one who was letting her bleed to death slowly and not even giving her freaking painkillers is the good doctor. But the doctor who saved her life is the bad doctor and must be a “lyer”.
Lady, what colour is the sky in your world?
both doctors opinions where different both of them could have been wrong all I’m saying is how does she really know that it was the best choice.
a c section would have the same outcome but different.
because there was the chance the baby would have lived too.
that means maybe the one who may have saved her life unnecessarily ended her child’s when maybe both could have been saved.
and I think that it was with held from her to justify murdering her innocent child.
that she may have had the chance to love and enjoy.
No, there isn’t a chance her fetus would have lived with a c-section. She was at 20 weeks gestation, which is pre-viability. We aren’t even talking micro-preemie there; there is no way that a baby would have survived ex-utero at 20 weeks gestation. Period. So what would have happened is that Karnythia would have had to go through the physical stress and trauma of a cesarean, which would have presented more significant risks to her survival, for nothing.
I have a friend who has cancer she has had it since she was a young child.
the doctors told her she wouldn’t live to see 12.
she is now almost 50. has 4 children all grown up.
but everyday she may or may not have died. was she and awful mother for risking leaving her children mother-less. over some thing she has no control over?
the doctors told me I was high risk. but was I really?
just because one doctor say’s so?
I’ve proven them wrong on many occasions.
I live in a small town.
here our doctors say “high risk” in the city more educated doctors with access to more information say no big deal. maybe both doctors in this case vary in opinion and maybe they were both wrong.
Considering you’ve lost seven of eleven pregnancies, I don’t think your doctors were wrong. You just came out on the right side of the statistics, but most of your pregnancies didn’t.
Here’s something I don’t think you’re grasping: the way statistics work is that they aren’t a certainty (unless it’s 0% or 100%). So if you’re told something has a 40% chance of occurring and then it doesn’t occur, that doesn’t mean your risk was actually 0%. It means your risk was 40%, and your circumstances turned out to fall into the the other 60%. If somebody has a 99% chance of something happening, and it doesn’t, there was still a 99% chance of that happening; they just happened to be the 1%. The fact that you survived despite those risks doesn’t mean those risks weren’t real, or that they’re not real for other people. And more importantly, if there’s a 20% risk of something bad happening… guess what, that’s going to happen some of the time, to some people. The fact that you fell into the 80% doesn’t mean that others won’t fall into the 20%.
So yes, stepping in front of a bullet to save an existing child is a very different act than sacrificing yourself for a fetus.
if a child can live outside a body even if with medical assistance. how is this child considered a fetus?
my 5 month old baby would not grieve for me if I was lost would that justify his murder?
even before the end of the first trimester they can be startled which means they have some sort of awareness of things around them.
there are people born with out the ability to feel, or held a proper thought should these people be murdered.
which in your logic would be justified because they don’t feel they don’t know. they wouldn’t grieve.
the child inside my body yet part of it is no different then a set of conjoined twins both have their own rights to the “it’s my body my choice” doe’s that give them the right to murder one to save the other?
of course not because even tho attached they both are separate humans. they
have the right to decide to live.
even if not capable of making a proper thought, they still have that right.
my children were attached to me but altogether a separate life.
it was not my right to decide it should end.
It’s considered a fetus until it’s born, at which point it becomes a neonate/newborn/infant/baby/etc. Basic embryology: give it a read sometime.
even before the end of the first trimester they can be startled which means they have some sort of awareness of things around them.
You know what else shows awareness of stimuli? Plants. Venus flytraps will respond to stimuli. Flowers respond to stimuli. Better stop eating plants then.
there are people born with out the ability to feel, or held a proper thought should these people be murdered.
You’re setting up a strawman, pretending I’m suggesting that developmentally disabled people should be murdered. I’ve said no such thing. What I’ve said is that there’s a vast difference between the negative effects that will be suffered by sentient, aware, thinking, feeling children, and a non-sentient, unaware fetus who is terminated. That fetus will not be suffering lifelong ill effects; it won’t even be aware that it didn’t continue to exist. But those real children will sure as hell feel the effects of losing their mother. Given a choice between visiting incredible suffering upon real children, or terminating a fetus, there’s no question in my mind as to which is the more ethical choice.
the child inside my body yet part of it is no different then a set of conjoined twins both have their own rights to the “it’s my body my choice” doe’s that give them the right to murder one to save the other?
Better start lobbying against separation surgeries then, since in cases where vital organs are shared, one conjoined twin dies.
Better start lobbying against separation surgeries then, since in cases where vital organs are shared, one conjoined twin dies.
Pleeeease don’t give her any ideas! (joke)
“Author: anonymous
Comment:
Shaddup already, you ignorant, religion-poisoned babbling moron.”
Oh wow!! After reading all of the previous posts and this comment, I’m concerned.
I went back and read my posts on this topic and I realize that mine did sound judgemental and condescending. That is not at all how I wanted to come across. Reading what the “infamous” wrote also brought some of this to home for me. The reasons I am against abortion really did not need to be spelled out here.
I am a Christian and I don’t want Christians to be displayed in a poor light. God reminded me of something today in church. Its not up to us to judge others. That is not what Jesus was all about. He died for all of us and none of us are superior to anyone else. For any reason. I apologize and ask for forgiveness if I came across that way.
The “infamous” reminded me of why so many people don’t want to listen to why anti- abortionists take the position that we take. Her posts (and mine) were definitely proof to me that its not what you say but how you say it that makes the difference.
Even though, none of you may see it from my own posts regarding this subject, I really am not out to condemn or judge anyone for doing something that I disagree with.
I do have compassion for Karnythia. (I hope I spelled that right.) Nobody should ever be treated the way that she was. I do hope that her case and her complaint did change the way things were done in that particular hospital. Even though I’m against abortion, I do think that her case was different from the view I have of it. I read this originally because I do want to see the other side of things and be open to other views. I know I am not perfect and I can admit when I am wrong. Nobody is perfect, not even the “infamous”. If we were perfect, then Jesus would never have had to die for us.
If I have offended anyone, including the author of this blog, I apologize and ask for forgiveness. It truly was never meant that way.
Thank you so much for sharing your story. What a horrible ordeal that you’ve been through. Thank god you survived and that there was someone there to save you. All the best to you, your husband, and your children.
Thankyou for sharing *offers hugs and/or other acceptable supportive actions*
Quoting you:
“This attitude that women are shirking responsibility by opting out of having unwanted children has always boggled my mind. But then I’m a mom, and I would never want my kids to grow up an unwanted child like I did. I love my kids more than I could ever explain & I do my best to give them the childhood I never had.”
Query based on the quotation:
Based on your reasoning, would it have been responsible and loving on your mother’s part to abort you rather than give birth to an unwanted child (you in this case)? If so, how do you square this with your love for your own children, who needless to say would not exist if your mother had behaved in “responsibly” and “lovingly” by ending your life before birth? Should one not argue that your mother carrying you to term was in fact the right thing to do, despite the hardship of your childhood due to her own subsequent irresponsibility in neglecting you, if for no other reason than that it permitted you to live and for your children to live as well under your more admirably more loving care? In short, it seems that perhaps your mother, for all her many faults, at least allowed you the freedom of choice to treat your own children better than she unfortunately treated you by allowing you to live.
I would like to hear regulars here respond, preferably in a civil manner. Thanks!
Trying to dictate tone won’t work out well for you here. Just a heads up. I suggest you go read the rules. As for your question? I would never wish my childhood on anyone else & while I survived, it is definitely not something I would go through again if I could avoid it. The life that I’ve built now (as much as I love it) still isn’t worth the childhood I lived through. My love for my very much wanted children is love that they would get with any parent that really wanted to be a parent. Every child deserves to be a wanted child.
Thanks for the response. Also, I wasn’t attempting to dictate tone, just making a sincere request.
I certainly sympathize with the difficulty of your childhood — I say sympathize, not empathize, because by God’s grace I was blessed with responsible, loving parents. That having been said, I respectfully wonder if you can truly mean what you said when you said that your life now is still not worth the childhood you had. If you truly meant that, wouldn’t you be saying that you still wish you had never been born, or that on balance you ought to take your own life because the good things that have followed don’t outweigh the horrible things that went before? But if that were the case, then your children would never have been born and you would not be around to raise them. I would submit that your life is infinitely valuable in spite of any wrongs that anyone else did to you because your life does not derive its worth from what other people — even your parents or your self — ascribe to it. Rather, you are a person made in God’s image and you therefore have a right to exist and I am glad that you do. Best regards.
Nothing is worth the childhood I had. Did I consider suicide during it? Yes. Several times. I still bear the scars (literal and figurative) of what happened to me. I’m a survivor in every sense of the word, but that doesn’t mean that I think my life now makes up for my life then. You had responsible loving parents, I’m parenting my kids by doing the opposite of how I was raised. This has worked so far, and I hope it continues to be great for my kids. I think that they’d be here regardless of my existence though because they could have come from anyone and been amazing little people. Am I glad they are mine? Yes. But that doesn’t mean I think my mother should have ever reproduced.
I was lucky enough to have a mother that waited to have me until she was at a stable place in her life, and who raised me in a reasonable and loving way. I’m glad to be alive, and glad my own kids are alive. But if my mother hadn’t been at that place in her life, and I had been unwanted – yes, it would have been better for her to abort me than to have a child she didn’t want. If my birth would have jeopardized the life she’d built and/or stability (and, since my elder sister had been born by that time, have affected my sister as well) then no, my birth wouldn’t have been worth that. Had I been aborted then I would have ceased to exist before I was ever aware of existing, and beyond that point it isn’t even worth speculating (because I have no way of knowing whether their lives would have been better or worse without the existence of an unwanted child, and obviously it wouldn’t matter to me one way or another).
I deeply grieving for you. The decision is end a life is never easy. Nor should it be. I will pray for you to have comfort.
Sound to me the only measure to save your life was already did, what I’m saying you said the baby was already no longer alive so aborting Baby Karnythia was out of the question. The only measure to save your life might have been send you to the OR not the ER. If that was the case then it is out of his hands. He handed you off to a different Doctor. In simple term all they needed to do is get into the OR and try repair. Yes I agree it is an emergency and your life is important.
Not all Doctor’s are licensed to perform abortion, for legal purposes. Folks, Doctors are not God, people expects them to perform miracles and the can’t. It isn’t because the refuse to, it’s because it not in their capability.
Abortion has become more a liability issue rather than a moral issue for Doctors. If the Doctor is not properly train then he will not only kill the baby but mother as well. It so much easier for a Doctor to tell the court “I refused the procedure because it’s not my area of expertise”, rather than “She died because I didn’t know what I was doing.”
Now before any slams me, I will tell you I am Pro-Life. This situation is a sticky one. One I would never blog about. I would kept this personal and just between family and God. Buy it’s your life.
This my opinion. I will say again I’m praying for you, I’m praying for comfort and peace of mind. God Bless you.
Of course. Because keeping it between her, her family members, and God is just another story of women being oppressed swept under the rug, where you and your anti-choice peers don’t have to stare at the ever-changing narrative challenging your assumptions of women, their right to sex, and reproductive autonomy. You want her to stay silent because you think she has something to be ashamed of.
Hmmm. Not sure where you read where I want her to keep silent. What here is what I said “One I would never blog about. I would kept this personal and just between family and God. Buy it’s your life.” Not sure where you read that I wanted her to keep silent, you must have read it from somewhere else. But not my post. Sorry.
Most people are blinded by anger they read only what they want to read. Not what is written before them. That why America is in the shape it’s in today.
Let me enlighten you why, in MY humble opinion, I WOULD never gone viral with this. It’s called dignity. I respect and love my wife 400% more than myself. She has given birth to my two beautiful blessings, a 2 year old daughter and 5 month old son. If she ever had to make that call to abort a baby (which she would give her life for any of us, as would I) The bible teaches “No greater love than that who lays down his life for his friends” John 15:13. Some would prefer reaching out to others, we reach out to family and church friends, those are the people who love us, not you or anyone of this world.
Now what she did was wrong, whose to say. That should be between her, the husband and God, nobody else. I’m not condemning nor putting her down. She has suffered enough!! She needs comfort and to know people care and are praying for her. You were the only person judging here not me!!
Reason why me and my Pro-life peers are still strong is that the babies have no voice, we are called to be their fighters so the can have a right to live. Which now most of us are preferring to be called “Right to lifers” simply it is in the constitution.
I have a friend who’s heart when out to your story and tweeted her feelings; that lead me to read this article. And, I would just like to say, I’m so glad you made it through this, and I commend you for sharing your story. It annoys me to no END that there are people who are unable to leave their egos and beliefs on the side and see things from a different perspective. Again, I’m glad that you were able to get through and that you had your husband and kids to support you.
I’m sorry, ChefDavid’s smarm and have-it-both ways sleaze is too much to keep silent about. Yeah, sure, you’d respect her decision but gee, the greatest love is one where you kick the bucket for the team…..but only if you’re a woman, and it’s for some dude who indulges in meaningless protestations—-just what the hell did you measure that 400% on,dude?
Here’s a clue: respect isn’t measured in increments it’s by actions and trust. You feel like Karnythia should have kept her trap shut because, really, it might make some smug anti-choicers realize what bloodthirsty little woman-hating savagest they actually are. Respect speaks for itself when you value a< full grown, living, breathing, working, playing, sexing, women as a human being whose life takes precedence at her choice over whatever might cause her death.
You just hope people won’t notice that you smugly tied to hedge your bets with that tripe about how much you love her life buuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuut the greatest love of all is giving up your life for others. (I bet that’s limited to fetuses and the living women whose life they’re endangering.) Funny about that.
In short, not even a nice try. Too transparent. Show, don’t tell, dude, because what you’re actually showing is not in any way shape or form respect.
I can sit here and waste my time with you, but nah!!! I refuse to have a battle of wits with an unarmed person.
God Bless you
Ah, you hear that sound? That’s the sound of anti-choicer’s nerve being plucked like a guitar string. Bye bye, Respect for women?
Jesus, they believe their own propaganda. I didn’t know bullshit fumes could cause intoxication. If you pull your cranium out of your own colon, you might be able to get some fresh air and plump up some of those anti-choice-shriveled brain cells.
Walking cliche.
If I am the one with a issue here then why are you the one swearing? You mother should swat your bottom for talking like a child.
You you are not worth my time. I’m praying for you
OMG PEOPLE. Stop it with the “you’re swearing, you’re so bad!” whining. That is a tactic from the 4th grade. Adults swear, okay? Get over it. If you think that swearing is the height of terribleness in dialogue, may I suggest you hie yourself to other parts of the Internet? Here swearing is okay, so just stfu about it.
Hi there. I know this might be a little strange, but I’m giving a speech on abortion, and I was wondering if I could quote this post in it? It’s going to be an interesting class. I live in Kansas… O_o;
Sure. This post has been all over the internet at this point so I’m fine with it being quoted.