Comments on: The problem with Dollhouse is not that I don’t understand subtlety http://theangryblackwoman.com/2009/04/28/the-problem-with-dollhouse-is-not-that-i-dont-understand-subtlety/ Race, Politics, Gender, Sexuality, Anger Mon, 13 Feb 2012 00:10:08 +0000 hourly 1 http://wordpress.org/?v=3.3 By: Joseph Lewis http://theangryblackwoman.com/2009/04/28/the-problem-with-dollhouse-is-not-that-i-dont-understand-subtlety/comment-page-1/#comment-25598 Joseph Lewis Sun, 11 Oct 2009 14:41:56 +0000 http://theangryblackwoman.com/?p=645#comment-25598 @Shauna, This conversation (which is now 5 or 6 months old and thus not going anywhere "fast") was a fairly productive critique of Dollhouse. And most of the comments about Buffy are positive, including mine. So I'm a little confused by your comments. I don't think anyone's opinions here about Whedon TV shows are meant to insinuate that anyone, including you, "know nothing about feminism." Most of the discussion centered on the issues presented in Dollhouse and Whedon's position as a self-proclaimed and generally acknowledged "feminist," which seemed reasonable in the Buffy Era but seems very flawed in the Dollhouse Era. What are your thoughts on Dollhouse? @Shauna,

This conversation (which is now 5 or 6 months old and thus not going anywhere “fast”) was a fairly productive critique of Dollhouse. And most of the comments about Buffy are positive, including mine. So I’m a little confused by your comments.

I don’t think anyone’s opinions here about Whedon TV shows are meant to insinuate that anyone, including you, “know nothing about feminism.” Most of the discussion centered on the issues presented in Dollhouse and Whedon’s position as a self-proclaimed and generally acknowledged “feminist,” which seemed reasonable in the Buffy Era but seems very flawed in the Dollhouse Era.

What are your thoughts on Dollhouse?

]]> By: Shauna http://theangryblackwoman.com/2009/04/28/the-problem-with-dollhouse-is-not-that-i-dont-understand-subtlety/comment-page-1/#comment-25337 Shauna Thu, 08 Oct 2009 20:13:13 +0000 http://theangryblackwoman.com/?p=645#comment-25337 I think the problem here is that everyone is being defensive and attacking one another, saying, my opinion is better than your opinion because of X. So this argument is going nowhere fast because as long as everyone is attacking one another, then no progress is going to be made in terms of making someone else see your viewpoint(s). I am a feminist, and yes I have studied feminist theory, do no a great deal about it and don't need someone lecturing on Feminism 101 because I think Buffy is feminist. Buffy is the most empowering most truly feminist show I have seen on the air and my thinking that certainly does not mean that I know nothing about feminism. How insulting is that? When I've taken Womens' Studies classes, hold a Bachelor's degree and a Master's Degree and am and always will be an ardent feminist? I have no doubt that you know just as much about what you are talking about as I do. I think the problem here is that everyone is being defensive and attacking one another, saying, my opinion is better than your opinion because of X. So this argument is going nowhere fast because as long as everyone is attacking one another, then no progress is going to be made in terms of making someone else see your viewpoint(s).

I am a feminist, and yes I have studied feminist theory, do no a great deal about it and don’t need someone lecturing on Feminism 101 because I think Buffy is feminist. Buffy is the most empowering most truly feminist show I have seen on the air and my thinking that certainly does not mean that I know nothing about feminism. How insulting is that? When I’ve taken Womens’ Studies classes, hold a Bachelor’s degree and a Master’s Degree and am and always will be an ardent feminist? I have no doubt that you know just as much about what you are talking about as I do.

]]> By: Brent http://theangryblackwoman.com/2009/04/28/the-problem-with-dollhouse-is-not-that-i-dont-understand-subtlety/comment-page-1/#comment-16621 Brent Fri, 07 Aug 2009 08:05:07 +0000 http://theangryblackwoman.com/?p=645#comment-16621 I actually watched every episode of Doll House because I had liked Whedon's previous work. I watched and kept waiting for storyline to show the complexity of the plot and characters. However by the final episode I realized that it simply didn't exist. We are left at the end with the flimsy excuse that being programmed is acceptable because the people involved are desperate escape the pain of their previous lives. Someone at Fox who obviously flunked both literature and film making failed to note that people have been doing that very thing for centuries with alcohol and other mind altering substances. Just compare the scene of the woman in the movie "Fresh" who is so desperate for a cocaine fix that she is trying to seduce a ten year old boy. The sad thing is that the health and cleanliness of the dolls are all that separate them from addicts with their lives being wasted just as casually as anyone on "Intervention". What happens when these dolls are twenty years older and no longer in demand for sexual exploitation? The issue of whether a pleasant masquerade or illusion is better than a harsh reality has been done over and over. "The Menagerie" and a whole host of other Star Trek episodes, "The Matrix", "The Truman Show", "The Island", and others have all treated this issue more honestly. Were Neo or Truman better off living a lie? "Dollhouse" failed to create any interest in me for what happens to either the company or the characters. That is quite a feat considering how easily the show would include issues of slavery, abuse, loss of free will and identity, and even the question of what it means to be human. I'm baffled how Whedon could have so easily forgotten the turmoil it caused in "Buffy The Vampire Slayer" when Dawn found out that her memories of being Buffy's sister were all fake. I don't see the subtlety either. I can't see what isn't there. I actually watched every episode of Doll House because I had liked Whedon’s previous work. I watched and kept waiting for storyline to show the complexity of the plot and characters. However by the final episode I realized that it simply didn’t exist. We are left at the end with the flimsy excuse that being programmed is acceptable because the people involved are desperate escape the pain of their previous lives. Someone at Fox who obviously flunked both literature and film making failed to note that people have been doing that very thing for centuries with alcohol and other mind altering substances. Just compare the scene of the woman in the movie “Fresh” who is so desperate for a cocaine fix that she is trying to seduce a ten year old boy. The sad thing is that the health and cleanliness of the dolls are all that separate them from addicts with their lives being wasted just as casually as anyone on “Intervention”. What happens when these dolls are twenty years older and no longer in demand for sexual exploitation? The issue of whether a pleasant masquerade or illusion is better than a harsh reality has been done over and over. “The Menagerie” and a whole host of other Star Trek episodes, “The Matrix”, “The Truman Show”, “The Island”, and others have all treated this issue more honestly. Were Neo or Truman better off living a lie? “Dollhouse” failed to create any interest in me for what happens to either the company or the characters. That is quite a feat considering how easily the show would include issues of slavery, abuse, loss of free will and identity, and even the question of what it means to be human. I’m baffled how Whedon could have so easily forgotten the turmoil it caused in “Buffy The Vampire Slayer” when Dawn found out that her memories of being Buffy’s sister were all fake. I don’t see the subtlety either. I can’t see what isn’t there.

]]> By: ha http://theangryblackwoman.com/2009/04/28/the-problem-with-dollhouse-is-not-that-i-dont-understand-subtlety/comment-page-1/#comment-12050 ha Wed, 13 May 2009 23:49:35 +0000 http://theangryblackwoman.com/?p=645#comment-12050 I've never seen the show, and hope dearly that the musical that the song comes from has some context that explains such a song. I’ve never seen the show, and hope dearly that the musical that the song comes from has some context that explains such a song.

]]> By: Astraea http://theangryblackwoman.com/2009/04/28/the-problem-with-dollhouse-is-not-that-i-dont-understand-subtlety/comment-page-1/#comment-12037 Astraea Wed, 13 May 2009 18:51:48 +0000 http://theangryblackwoman.com/?p=645#comment-12037 <i>I actually made that exact moment between Echo and Caroline the focus of my review of the finale!</i> Yay! Running off to read. I've been impatient to read thoughts on the finale. I actually made that exact moment between Echo and Caroline the focus of my review of the finale!

Yay! Running off to read. I’ve been impatient to read thoughts on the finale.

]]> By: Joseph Lewis http://theangryblackwoman.com/2009/04/28/the-problem-with-dollhouse-is-not-that-i-dont-understand-subtlety/comment-page-1/#comment-12035 Joseph Lewis Wed, 13 May 2009 18:44:49 +0000 http://theangryblackwoman.com/?p=645#comment-12035 Astraea, I actually made that exact moment between Echo and Caroline the focus of my review of the finale! http://josephrobertlewis.wordpress.com/2009/05/09/dollhouse-finale-echo-trumps-omega/ Astraea,

I actually made that exact moment between Echo and Caroline the focus of my review of the finale!

http://josephrobertlewis.wordpress.com/2009/05/09/dollhouse-finale-echo-trumps-omega/

]]> By: Astraea http://theangryblackwoman.com/2009/04/28/the-problem-with-dollhouse-is-not-that-i-dont-understand-subtlety/comment-page-1/#comment-12034 Astraea Wed, 13 May 2009 18:35:10 +0000 http://theangryblackwoman.com/?p=645#comment-12034 <i>Also is it even possible to have a show based, basically, on the idea of people being rented out that doesn’t send off the signal of holy human rights violation batman? I think it would be nigh impossible. </i> Except the critiques of the Dollhouse mostly center around the fact that the show does not portray this seriously enough as OMG skeevy human rights violations, specifically rape. SPOILER for finale: Neither the self-aware Caroline or Madeline expressed any problems with having been a doll in the finale. So I'm disturbed that the show's writing supports the people who refuse to think of what happens to the actives as rape. As joseph just pointed out while I've been typing this, there could be a good show with this premise that was not filled with skeevy issues. I actually thought the part of the finale where Echo was filled with different personalities and trying to save Caroline-on-a-card was the more exciting and engaging moment of the entire season. That could be an awesome show, because we could root for Echo and not be bombarded with sexy, pretty portrayals of her servicing clients. Other dolls could be recurring characters just as easily. But what's disturbing is that they clearly WANT a show where they can show sexy pretty portrayals of Echo servicing clients, and they are doing everything they can to mitigate the skeevyness. Also is it even possible to have a show based, basically, on the idea of people being rented out that doesn’t send off the signal of holy human rights violation batman? I think it would be nigh impossible.

Except the critiques of the Dollhouse mostly center around the fact that the show does not portray this seriously enough as OMG skeevy human rights violations, specifically rape.

SPOILER for finale:

Neither the self-aware Caroline or Madeline expressed any problems with having been a doll in the finale. So I’m disturbed that the show’s writing supports the people who refuse to think of what happens to the actives as rape.

As joseph just pointed out while I’ve been typing this, there could be a good show with this premise that was not filled with skeevy issues. I actually thought the part of the finale where Echo was filled with different personalities and trying to save Caroline-on-a-card was the more exciting and engaging moment of the entire season. That could be an awesome show, because we could root for Echo and not be bombarded with sexy, pretty portrayals of her servicing clients. Other dolls could be recurring characters just as easily.

But what’s disturbing is that they clearly WANT a show where they can show sexy pretty portrayals of Echo servicing clients, and they are doing everything they can to mitigate the skeevyness.

]]> By: Joseph Lewis http://theangryblackwoman.com/2009/04/28/the-problem-with-dollhouse-is-not-that-i-dont-understand-subtlety/comment-page-1/#comment-12032 Joseph Lewis Wed, 13 May 2009 18:22:11 +0000 http://theangryblackwoman.com/?p=645#comment-12032 You could absolutely have a "good" show about human trafficking, if you present the traffickers as Villains and the people saving the slaves as Heroes, and you don't glamorize the lifestyle or function of the slaves. But on Dollhouse, the "hero" Ballard is obsessed with one slave, and the traffickers are constantly humanized, and the slaves are serving altruistic purposes. Dollhouse muddies the waters where no mud is needed or desired. You could absolutely have a “good” show about human trafficking, if you present the traffickers as Villains and the people saving the slaves as Heroes, and you don’t glamorize the lifestyle or function of the slaves. But on Dollhouse, the “hero” Ballard is obsessed with one slave, and the traffickers are constantly humanized, and the slaves are serving altruistic purposes. Dollhouse muddies the waters where no mud is needed or desired.

]]> By: hypatia http://theangryblackwoman.com/2009/04/28/the-problem-with-dollhouse-is-not-that-i-dont-understand-subtlety/comment-page-1/#comment-12030 hypatia Wed, 13 May 2009 18:02:53 +0000 http://theangryblackwoman.com/?p=645#comment-12030 So I guess the question becomes, can we compare Dollhouse to other types of shows or is it unique enough that we simply can't critique it against those of similar themes? Also is it even possible to have a show based, basically, on the idea of people being rented out that doesn't send off the signal of holy human rights violation batman? I think it would be nigh impossible. So I guess the question becomes, can we compare Dollhouse to other types of shows or is it unique enough that we simply can’t critique it against those of similar themes?

Also is it even possible to have a show based, basically, on the idea of people being rented out that doesn’t send off the signal of holy human rights violation batman? I think it would be nigh impossible.

]]> By: hypatia http://theangryblackwoman.com/2009/04/28/the-problem-with-dollhouse-is-not-that-i-dont-understand-subtlety/comment-page-1/#comment-12029 hypatia Wed, 13 May 2009 17:19:44 +0000 http://theangryblackwoman.com/?p=645#comment-12029 Wow, that is so off I can't even begin to explain... just wow. Wow, that is so off I can’t even begin to explain… just wow.

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