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	<title>Comments on: If A=B and B=C but C is not equal to A, then&#8230; WTF?</title>
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	<link>http://theangryblackwoman.com/2008/11/08/if-ab-and-bc-but-c-is-not-equal-to-a-then-wtf/</link>
	<description>Race, Politics, Gender, Sexuality, Anger</description>
	<lastBuildDate>Wed, 23 May 2012 23:58:59 +0000</lastBuildDate>
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		<title>By: JAM Renaissance</title>
		<link>http://theangryblackwoman.com/2008/11/08/if-ab-and-bc-but-c-is-not-equal-to-a-then-wtf/comment-page-1/#comment-8620</link>
		<dc:creator>JAM Renaissance</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 18 Nov 2008 19:22:43 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://theangryblackwoman.wordpress.com/?p=503#comment-8620</guid>
		<description>I responded to TBC on his website, but I wanted to C&amp;P the response here.

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I believe that the evidence you are looking for is not going to appear. This has nothing to do with whether or not there is merit or not in calling out racism. However, I do think that you want to see a statistically sound experiment or observational study on the usage of the word &quot;racist&quot;, and I don&#039;t believe anyone has ever done that. Indeed, it would be nearly impossible to look at a &quot;real life&quot; situation, as that would require divorcing other repercussions from the charge of racism. To put it another way, that is like simply telling Don Imus &quot;You&#039;re racist&quot; and measuring the results, as opposed to what did occur, which was telling him &quot;You&#039;re racist&quot;, firing him, and THEN measuring the results.

I also think that a revamping of the strategy can occur without abandoning the usage of the term entirely. For example, I find it best to cite specific BEHAVIORS as racist, while separating the behavior from the person. A non-racist person may exhibit a racist behavior (in my experience, it is usually subconscious), and there is a tremendous difference between critique of an individual&#039;s behavior and critique of the individual.

You are right that it is insane to do the same thing over and over again, but we have merely scratched the surface of what we are doing right now.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I responded to TBC on his website, but I wanted to C&amp;P the response here.</p>
<p>&#8212;&#8212;&#8212;&#8212;&#8212;&#8212;&#8212;&#8212;&#8212;&#8212;&#8212;&#8212;&#8212;&#8212;&#8212;&#8212;&#8211;</p>
<p>I believe that the evidence you are looking for is not going to appear. This has nothing to do with whether or not there is merit or not in calling out racism. However, I do think that you want to see a statistically sound experiment or observational study on the usage of the word &#8220;racist&#8221;, and I don&#8217;t believe anyone has ever done that. Indeed, it would be nearly impossible to look at a &#8220;real life&#8221; situation, as that would require divorcing other repercussions from the charge of racism. To put it another way, that is like simply telling Don Imus &#8220;You&#8217;re racist&#8221; and measuring the results, as opposed to what did occur, which was telling him &#8220;You&#8217;re racist&#8221;, firing him, and THEN measuring the results.</p>
<p>I also think that a revamping of the strategy can occur without abandoning the usage of the term entirely. For example, I find it best to cite specific BEHAVIORS as racist, while separating the behavior from the person. A non-racist person may exhibit a racist behavior (in my experience, it is usually subconscious), and there is a tremendous difference between critique of an individual&#8217;s behavior and critique of the individual.</p>
<p>You are right that it is insane to do the same thing over and over again, but we have merely scratched the surface of what we are doing right now.</p>
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		<title>By: anonymous black woman</title>
		<link>http://theangryblackwoman.com/2008/11/08/if-ab-and-bc-but-c-is-not-equal-to-a-then-wtf/comment-page-1/#comment-8621</link>
		<dc:creator>anonymous black woman</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 17 Nov 2008 21:14:07 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://theangryblackwoman.wordpress.com/?p=503#comment-8621</guid>
		<description>Genius. You pointed out that it was inconsistent for gays to just single out black homophobia, but you did not apologize or let us off the hook either!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Genius. You pointed out that it was inconsistent for gays to just single out black homophobia, but you did not apologize or let us off the hook either!</p>
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		<title>By: JC</title>
		<link>http://theangryblackwoman.com/2008/11/08/if-ab-and-bc-but-c-is-not-equal-to-a-then-wtf/comment-page-1/#comment-8682</link>
		<dc:creator>JC</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 13 Nov 2008 18:21:57 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://theangryblackwoman.wordpress.com/?p=503#comment-8682</guid>
		<description>Thanks for this excellent post.  I especially appreciated your point that interracial marriage was not a big Civil Rights Movement priority - obvious now that you&#039;ve said it, but it hadn&#039;t occurred to me.  But also that you articulate the stupidity of the fallout from the passage of Prop 8 in such a clear fashion - I&#039;m still stuck in &quot;why are we still so stupid,&quot; which is not so constructive.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Thanks for this excellent post.  I especially appreciated your point that interracial marriage was not a big Civil Rights Movement priority &#8211; obvious now that you&#8217;ve said it, but it hadn&#8217;t occurred to me.  But also that you articulate the stupidity of the fallout from the passage of Prop 8 in such a clear fashion &#8211; I&#8217;m still stuck in &#8220;why are we still so stupid,&#8221; which is not so constructive.</p>
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		<title>By: Yvette</title>
		<link>http://theangryblackwoman.com/2008/11/08/if-ab-and-bc-but-c-is-not-equal-to-a-then-wtf/comment-page-1/#comment-8681</link>
		<dc:creator>Yvette</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 13 Nov 2008 16:18:45 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://theangryblackwoman.wordpress.com/?p=503#comment-8681</guid>
		<description>&lt;i&gt;But just out of curiosity: could you or anyone else provide me with any arguments against gay marriage that don’t stem from either religious principles (sometimes masked as “nature” arguments) or homophobia? Is there any real secular argument against gay marriage?&lt;/i&gt;

I am not sure if this is an argument against marriage equity that is &quot;separate&quot; from homophobia--it may be a further nuance about how homophobia may manifest in some African Americans.

Perhaps with no other racial/ethnic group has the experience of racial prejudice--especially racial violence--been so tied up in images of sexuality. Sexual deviance and sexual otherness has been used as a rationalization for all sorts of things in our oppression narrative: e.g., the hyper masculinity of Black males that makes them a danger to White women and prone to violence, and the oversexed nature of Black women that makes them prone to indiscriminate reproduction and makes it impossible for them to be raped. The other pole of caricatures--the sexless Black Mammy, Uncle Remus, and Magical Negro--has also been used against us.

So, assuming that this assessment is accurate, perhaps part of what is a unique aspect of homophobia with some Blacks is a psychological thing. I think many Black folks may be especially sensitive to not appearing to be &quot;sexually deviant,&quot; because this label has meant really bad things for us in the past. I think there is plenty of anecdotal evidence for this.

For example, it has become pretty well known that the Montgomery Bus Boycott actually could have had a different &quot;face&quot; from that of Rosa Parks, as there was a young woman who was arrested after employing the same protest strategy before the incident with Mrs. Parks. However, this young woman was unmarried--and pregnant. (She was also darker skinned, and there were other wrinkles to her situation, but that is a story for another day.) The thinking was that this was not a &quot;respectable&quot; figure to represent this fight.

If there is any validity to this theory, it should come as little surprise that identification with/acceptance of a minority group that the majority (White) culture has labeled as &quot;sexually deviant&quot; may be a huge hurdle for many who have this sensitivity to overcome.

This by no means excuses homophobia in our communities. What it may mean, though, is that the challenge for confronting homophobia in our Black communities involves, in part, addressing the wide range of healthy human sexuality. Ambiguous feelings about sexuality is, of course, a very American problem, as Jocelyn Elders and any number of other folks could attest to.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><i>But just out of curiosity: could you or anyone else provide me with any arguments against gay marriage that don’t stem from either religious principles (sometimes masked as “nature” arguments) or homophobia? Is there any real secular argument against gay marriage?</i></p>
<p>I am not sure if this is an argument against marriage equity that is &#8220;separate&#8221; from homophobia&#8211;it may be a further nuance about how homophobia may manifest in some African Americans.</p>
<p>Perhaps with no other racial/ethnic group has the experience of racial prejudice&#8211;especially racial violence&#8211;been so tied up in images of sexuality. Sexual deviance and sexual otherness has been used as a rationalization for all sorts of things in our oppression narrative: e.g., the hyper masculinity of Black males that makes them a danger to White women and prone to violence, and the oversexed nature of Black women that makes them prone to indiscriminate reproduction and makes it impossible for them to be raped. The other pole of caricatures&#8211;the sexless Black Mammy, Uncle Remus, and Magical Negro&#8211;has also been used against us.</p>
<p>So, assuming that this assessment is accurate, perhaps part of what is a unique aspect of homophobia with some Blacks is a psychological thing. I think many Black folks may be especially sensitive to not appearing to be &#8220;sexually deviant,&#8221; because this label has meant really bad things for us in the past. I think there is plenty of anecdotal evidence for this.</p>
<p>For example, it has become pretty well known that the Montgomery Bus Boycott actually could have had a different &#8220;face&#8221; from that of Rosa Parks, as there was a young woman who was arrested after employing the same protest strategy before the incident with Mrs. Parks. However, this young woman was unmarried&#8211;and pregnant. (She was also darker skinned, and there were other wrinkles to her situation, but that is a story for another day.) The thinking was that this was not a &#8220;respectable&#8221; figure to represent this fight.</p>
<p>If there is any validity to this theory, it should come as little surprise that identification with/acceptance of a minority group that the majority (White) culture has labeled as &#8220;sexually deviant&#8221; may be a huge hurdle for many who have this sensitivity to overcome.</p>
<p>This by no means excuses homophobia in our communities. What it may mean, though, is that the challenge for confronting homophobia in our Black communities involves, in part, addressing the wide range of healthy human sexuality. Ambiguous feelings about sexuality is, of course, a very American problem, as Jocelyn Elders and any number of other folks could attest to.</p>
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		<title>By: Gays of Our Lives &#171; Pregnant Drug-Dealing Prostitutes</title>
		<link>http://theangryblackwoman.com/2008/11/08/if-ab-and-bc-but-c-is-not-equal-to-a-then-wtf/comment-page-1/#comment-8680</link>
		<dc:creator>Gays of Our Lives &#171; Pregnant Drug-Dealing Prostitutes</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 13 Nov 2008 05:03:17 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://theangryblackwoman.wordpress.com/?p=503#comment-8680</guid>
		<description>[...] Firstly, in regards to some ignorant people blaming Black people in general for the passing of Prop 8 and consequent banning of gay marriage in California, I think it’s been fairly established by many bloggers, in particular; the Angry Black woman, that 7%&#8211;10% of the vote is not enough to make-or-break 93%. [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] Firstly, in regards to some ignorant people blaming Black people in general for the passing of Prop 8 and consequent banning of gay marriage in California, I think it’s been fairly established by many bloggers, in particular; the Angry Black woman, that 7%&#8211;10% of the vote is not enough to make-or-break 93%. [...]</p>
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		<title>By: the angry black woman</title>
		<link>http://theangryblackwoman.com/2008/11/08/if-ab-and-bc-but-c-is-not-equal-to-a-then-wtf/comment-page-1/#comment-8679</link>
		<dc:creator>the angry black woman</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 13 Nov 2008 03:45:40 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://theangryblackwoman.wordpress.com/?p=503#comment-8679</guid>
		<description>I actually already pointed out evidence, but you seem determined to ignore said evidence.  I&#039;m not sure what you want on the Richards or Imus front.  Like, do you need to see a plaque somewhere stating &quot;i, a white person, am better because I realized that don imus&#039; were wrong&quot;?  I mean, you&#039;re basically asking me to quantify a social change without having access to data that would be useful, thus setting yourself up to &#039;win&#039;.  But if you feel that calling out racism is pointless, then you&#039;ve already lost.  *shrugs* sorry.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I actually already pointed out evidence, but you seem determined to ignore said evidence.  I&#8217;m not sure what you want on the Richards or Imus front.  Like, do you need to see a plaque somewhere stating &#8220;i, a white person, am better because I realized that don imus&#8217; were wrong&#8221;?  I mean, you&#8217;re basically asking me to quantify a social change without having access to data that would be useful, thus setting yourself up to &#8216;win&#8217;.  But if you feel that calling out racism is pointless, then you&#8217;ve already lost.  *shrugs* sorry.</p>
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		<title>By: TBC</title>
		<link>http://theangryblackwoman.com/2008/11/08/if-ab-and-bc-but-c-is-not-equal-to-a-then-wtf/comment-page-1/#comment-8678</link>
		<dc:creator>TBC</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 13 Nov 2008 01:20:40 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://theangryblackwoman.wordpress.com/?p=503#comment-8678</guid>
		<description>I actually decided to deal with the comments and article here with a detailed response here http://theblackcritic.com/?p=625 and here http://www.dailykos.com/storyonly/2008/11/12/5842/4312/361/659682 .

Still, after reading the responses, it seems evident that the central question is curiously being tap-danced around.  May I see the evidence or the data which show personal &quot;name calling&quot; in the 21st Century helps to forward our cause and agenda?  Show me the evidence--and not just emotional outbursts--and I&#039;ll sign up to join the &quot;You&#039;re Racist&quot; fan club alongside everyone else. Just show me the evidence that it works, that it makes a tangible or measurable difference.  Anything else is a sideline distraction.  Declaring your love for the R-word, misses the point.  You can love your man but that doesn&#039;t me he&#039;s the right person for a healthy relationship.  It&#039;s a moot point.  Show me the evidence that calling Don Imus or Michael Richards racists inched us forward in any real way toward equality and justice in America.

If you can&#039;t find evidence, then it&#039;s fair to conclude that we often use it--rightly or wrongly--because it makes us &quot;feel&quot; better, not because it actually works.  Calling folks criminals doesn&#039;t stop crime.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I actually decided to deal with the comments and article here with a detailed response here <a href="http://theblackcritic.com/?p=625" rel="nofollow">http://theblackcritic.com/?p=625</a> and here <a href="http://www.dailykos.com/storyonly/2008/11/12/5842/4312/361/659682" rel="nofollow">http://www.dailykos.com/storyonly/2008/11/12/5842/4312/361/659682</a> .</p>
<p>Still, after reading the responses, it seems evident that the central question is curiously being tap-danced around.  May I see the evidence or the data which show personal &#8220;name calling&#8221; in the 21st Century helps to forward our cause and agenda?  Show me the evidence&#8211;and not just emotional outbursts&#8211;and I&#8217;ll sign up to join the &#8220;You&#8217;re Racist&#8221; fan club alongside everyone else. Just show me the evidence that it works, that it makes a tangible or measurable difference.  Anything else is a sideline distraction.  Declaring your love for the R-word, misses the point.  You can love your man but that doesn&#8217;t me he&#8217;s the right person for a healthy relationship.  It&#8217;s a moot point.  Show me the evidence that calling Don Imus or Michael Richards racists inched us forward in any real way toward equality and justice in America.</p>
<p>If you can&#8217;t find evidence, then it&#8217;s fair to conclude that we often use it&#8211;rightly or wrongly&#8211;because it makes us &#8220;feel&#8221; better, not because it actually works.  Calling folks criminals doesn&#8217;t stop crime.</p>
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		<title>By: Yvette</title>
		<link>http://theangryblackwoman.com/2008/11/08/if-ab-and-bc-but-c-is-not-equal-to-a-then-wtf/comment-page-1/#comment-8677</link>
		<dc:creator>Yvette</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 12 Nov 2008 21:04:50 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://theangryblackwoman.wordpress.com/?p=503#comment-8677</guid>
		<description>Thank you for the wonderful post and for continuing to encourage constructive discussion in your comment thread.

I have been following the fall-out from Prop 8, especially w/r/t the racial scapegoating for a few days now. I am dismayed that even on more academic sites, written by scholars, there has not been more critique of this magical &quot;70%&quot; figure. As most folks should know by now, that is based on an exit poll (google for more info on the problems, including lack of random sampling, with these) of fewer than 250 Black people. Other polls with better methodology have consistently shown figures that are not nearly as stark. Similarly, public opinion polling of people of color and other issues relating to LGBT rights (e.g., job discrimination, police harassment, health care access) also do not reveal Black folks to be more glaringly homophobic than other racial/ethnic demographics.

Moving beyond the idea of whether the &quot;actual&quot; figure is 70% or 50% or some other number, whatever the figure it is important to now have constructive and productive conversations about ways to move forward. In that regard, the scapegoating, religious bigotry, and dismissal of POC outreach is not helpful.

Actually the last few days is eerily reminiscent of the &quot;Blacks vs Feminists&quot; wars of the primary election season. (Seems like a lifetime ago now!!) We get similar failures to acknowledge intersectionality... similar footnoting of the roles played by POC within the movement...similar equating of feminist/woman [LGBT]=White...similar claims of postracialism...similar cries of &quot;Reverse Racism!&quot; (I have even seen OJ invoked on discussion threads on both topics in a strange racial variant of Godwin&#039;s Law.)

This may not be what folks want to hear right now, but I cannot help but think that the margin of Prop 8 passing--despite (perhaps) less than ideal organizing against it and the large amount of money for it--means that there is an important crack in the door that should not be overlooked.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Thank you for the wonderful post and for continuing to encourage constructive discussion in your comment thread.</p>
<p>I have been following the fall-out from Prop 8, especially w/r/t the racial scapegoating for a few days now. I am dismayed that even on more academic sites, written by scholars, there has not been more critique of this magical &#8220;70%&#8221; figure. As most folks should know by now, that is based on an exit poll (google for more info on the problems, including lack of random sampling, with these) of fewer than 250 Black people. Other polls with better methodology have consistently shown figures that are not nearly as stark. Similarly, public opinion polling of people of color and other issues relating to LGBT rights (e.g., job discrimination, police harassment, health care access) also do not reveal Black folks to be more glaringly homophobic than other racial/ethnic demographics.</p>
<p>Moving beyond the idea of whether the &#8220;actual&#8221; figure is 70% or 50% or some other number, whatever the figure it is important to now have constructive and productive conversations about ways to move forward. In that regard, the scapegoating, religious bigotry, and dismissal of POC outreach is not helpful.</p>
<p>Actually the last few days is eerily reminiscent of the &#8220;Blacks vs Feminists&#8221; wars of the primary election season. (Seems like a lifetime ago now!!) We get similar failures to acknowledge intersectionality&#8230; similar footnoting of the roles played by POC within the movement&#8230;similar equating of feminist/woman [LGBT]=White&#8230;similar claims of postracialism&#8230;similar cries of &#8220;Reverse Racism!&#8221; (I have even seen OJ invoked on discussion threads on both topics in a strange racial variant of Godwin&#8217;s Law.)</p>
<p>This may not be what folks want to hear right now, but I cannot help but think that the margin of Prop 8 passing&#8211;despite (perhaps) less than ideal organizing against it and the large amount of money for it&#8211;means that there is an important crack in the door that should not be overlooked.</p>
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		<title>By: Bree</title>
		<link>http://theangryblackwoman.com/2008/11/08/if-ab-and-bc-but-c-is-not-equal-to-a-then-wtf/comment-page-1/#comment-8676</link>
		<dc:creator>Bree</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 12 Nov 2008 04:38:47 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://theangryblackwoman.wordpress.com/?p=503#comment-8676</guid>
		<description>To be quite honest, I hadn&#039;t heard the whole &quot;black folks are to blame for Prop 8 passing&quot; until I started doing my blog rounds this morning.  If anything, I would think the white radical extreme fundmentalist groups, who have very public and popular mouthpieces like James Dobson and Donald Wildmon, should share the lion&#039;s share of blame for their shameful (but well-planned and funded) scare tactics, especially the tiresome &quot;think of the children!&quot; meme, that led to Prop 8&#039;s passing.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>To be quite honest, I hadn&#8217;t heard the whole &#8220;black folks are to blame for Prop 8 passing&#8221; until I started doing my blog rounds this morning.  If anything, I would think the white radical extreme fundmentalist groups, who have very public and popular mouthpieces like James Dobson and Donald Wildmon, should share the lion&#8217;s share of blame for their shameful (but well-planned and funded) scare tactics, especially the tiresome &#8220;think of the children!&#8221; meme, that led to Prop 8&#8242;s passing.</p>
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		<title>By: Kymberlyn</title>
		<link>http://theangryblackwoman.com/2008/11/08/if-ab-and-bc-but-c-is-not-equal-to-a-then-wtf/comment-page-1/#comment-8675</link>
		<dc:creator>Kymberlyn</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 12 Nov 2008 00:00:10 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://theangryblackwoman.wordpress.com/?p=503#comment-8675</guid>
		<description>Is this person KIDDING me?

Is this person trying to say that black folks can&#039;t or don&#039;t know how to multitask?  Whee!!!  Isn&#039;t this the same idea as cherry picking what battles to fight and when to fight them?  Isn&#039;t that the same problem that PoC&#039;s have when dealing with mainstream progressive movements--that our issues aren&#039;t as &quot;important&quot; so therefore let&#039;s relegate them to the bottom of the slush pile?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Is this person KIDDING me?</p>
<p>Is this person trying to say that black folks can&#8217;t or don&#8217;t know how to multitask?  Whee!!!  Isn&#8217;t this the same idea as cherry picking what battles to fight and when to fight them?  Isn&#8217;t that the same problem that PoC&#8217;s have when dealing with mainstream progressive movements&#8211;that our issues aren&#8217;t as &#8220;important&#8221; so therefore let&#8217;s relegate them to the bottom of the slush pile?</p>
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