I completely understand what you’re saying and quite agree–it’s just important for me to keep in mind that for many people in this country it does matter, because my default isn’t set to what I agree is the blindly silly “every vote counts” rhetoric that we have drummed at us in school.

And I guess I’ve given up on seeing real change in my lifetime; I never expect it from elected officials because as you say, there’s a system in place that not only weeds out those who would be in favor of real change, but is impossible for any one person to combat. I don’t know why I don’t expect it from other venues. I did a lot of activism work when I was younger (not that everybody needs to be younger, just that I was) and perhaps I just burnt out.

Heh. I grew up with some of that talk around too. But it’s not just about obstinate Commie rhetoric. For a lot of people in the world — a LOT of people — there really won’t be much of a difference.

My point is that the office of US President is essentially that of manager for a worldwide rape-starve-murder-plunder operation. This is not just far-left rhetoric — these are real things that happen to a lot of real people every day because of things that even the most saintly [heh!] president has had/would have to do to keep our insanely rapacious economic system running. Ultimately if we want this ‘change’ that all of these elect-me fools are hawking, we will need to make it ourselves — and it will need to be fundamental. Detroying the world with a green T-Shirt on won’t do it.

Elections would be more acceptable to me, BTW, if every country that had more than 10 armed and legally unaccountable US soldiers in it got to vote for US Prez. THAT would be democratic. No bomb-ization without representation!

Yep, that’s what I meant. It was a mistake in phrasing, though, not an insight into my definition of power. I’m well aware of all the people you cite.

It all depends on where you’re coming from. I grew up in an ultra-leftist context that disdained voting and any other way of “working within the system.” But the fact is that working within the system can be effective. For me, the reminder that government power is in fact effective political power is far more startling than the whole “it doesn’t matter if it’s a Democrat or a Republican because they’re all running-dog lackeys of capitalism” stuff I grew up with. When it comes to reproductive and sexual rights, it does make a difference.

And then Veronica said “Well, obviously. And nobody who achieves any political power in this country will be any different.”
*****

Maybe you mean “nobody who **attains a big political office** in this country will be any different”?

MLK, Caesar Chavez, Malcolm X, Rosa Parks, Sojorner Truth, John Brown, Emma Goldman, Jesse Jackson, Eugene Debs, Fred Hampton, and a WHOLE lot of other people achieved political power in this country. Without being warmongering corporate agents. They helped to force large-scale social change in this country and inspired others to work small-scale changes in their own communities. These are hallmarks of political power.

The fact that we think ‘power’ means ‘government’ (or maybe the power to choose which kind of cell phone we buy) is a big part of what is wrong with us as a culture.

I agree that anybody who makes it very far in a presidential race is going to to be a hustler. Furthermore, only someone who is willing to order the bombing of women and kids wil stand any chance of becoming Prez. That’s a straight-up fact of the system.

So the question arises: should we be spending so much of our time and energy jumping up and down over presidential elections, period? The ‘if you don’t vote, you can’t comlpain’ adage is BS. It’s been one of the great lies of Euro-American ‘democracy’ (and the slave-holding
‘classical ‘ civs. it has tried to pattern itself on) that going to the polls one day every four years somehow magically fulfills your civic duty and makes for a fair or equal or less brutal society. It’s BS. Tell that to the living and dead Native Americans that ‘democracy’ served so well. Go to Iraq now and them how lucky they are to be starved invaded and tortured by people who vote.

There are a lot of ways to make the world a less shite place, and voting is arguably one of these least effective. That said, everyone vote, sure. I mean OF COURSE I wuold rather see a Black former community activist in the oval office than mr. Monkeydemonface, but please don’t tell me any of these people are inspiring! Or that somehow things will finally be different when [ ] is in office.

If you have a machine (the US govt), and that machine is practically designed to squash babies, how much does it matter who’s behind the lever? Sure it’s good to have a guy (or gal) who will probably squash 5 babies per hour instead of 10. But is it ‘inspiring’?

Well, obviously. And nobody who achieves any political power in this country will be any different.

Rather, it will make them succesful in serving corporate interests before those of average people. “The real world of politics” — presidential politics, certainly, and most state and local politics too — consists of working on the behalf of corporations and rich rich people and getting things done that primarily benefit them. Unless you own a corporation they are not “your” politicians.

And I agree that the Clinton family s no scuzzier than any other political family. I for one don’t care about blowjobs from interns or whitewater. But Clinton bombed people. And brutalized — ruined, in fact — a lot of people’s lives through the prison boom, welfare ‘reform’, etc. He insulted and embarassed the two Black women in his cabinet before firing them And he starved & ‘diseased’ HUNDREDS OF THOUSANDS of children to death in Iraq. Madeline Albright got on 60 minutes and said as much:

http://youtube.com/watch?v=lK_QshS2EW8

And Hillary was there, smiling, along for the ride. They’re not just swindlerish politicians. They’re murderers and assholes.

And Obama wants to be just like ‘em! Some sorry shit….

Is he a good choice for president? Sure, absolutely. But follow him with open eyes — the man is no saint. Anyone who truly believes all his rhetoric hasn’t been watching him closely enough.

If you mean that Hillary is lying, sleazy, conniving, manipulative, phony, and most likely racist, then I say, yep. She’s a white politician. That’s…what they are. I highly doubt that the Clintons have more dirty dealings under their belts than any other successful political couple. That’s politics. Dirty dealings are what it is all about. This is not Mr. Smith Goes to Washington. This is reality. I want my politicians to be lying, sleazy, conniving, manipulative and phony (I don’t want them to be racist, but most white people in this country are racist to one extent or another, and most politicians are white). I want my politicians to be good at being lying, sleazy, conniving, manipulative, and phony. That’s what will make them successful in the real world of politics.

I don’t buy the image of Obama as a clean-cut, gee whillikers, untainted outsider. If it’s true, he’s not fit for President, because he won’t understand how anything works. But I don’t think it is true, because he wouldn’t have gotten as far as he has if it were. I’m certain that he’s lying, sleazy, conniving, manipulative, phony, and most likely sexist.

I don’t know where you’re getting “sociopath” from. I haven’t heard any indication that Hillary tortures animals or people for fun, or that she’s incapable of empathy. To be honest, I find the term “Shrillary” obnoxiously sexist.