Peace be with you.

I do not think so. From what I can see (and please correct me if I’m misrepresenting what you’ve said, ABW), ABW feels there’s nothing to be gained from discussion with whites who just… don’t… listen. A lot of points people end up trying to argue with her are about things she’s already gone over endlessly in other posts. And frankly, it seems like an awful lot of the hecklers who start arguments with her aren’t white people who came to learn about race; they’re folks who came to preach.

“ABW, as would others, learn volumes by simply involving whites in the discussion, understanding how whites view the various issues”

See, I think ABW *knows* how whites view the various issues. I think many black people probably do because the dominant culture is white culture; they’re mired in it. By contrast, I think most whites do not understand how blacks view the various issues. Because whites don’t experience racism, are inclined to dismiss claims of racism (because they don’t feel it), and have no real need or incentive to listen to the experiences of minorities, they have very little comprehension of how pervasive racism is. Talking to someone who thinks it isn’t real is very frustrating, and really pointless unless the person is going to accept the observations at face value instead of denying them (based on his own privileged and colorblind existence). So really, it’s *white* people who need to listen. Only then can the discussion go forward.

And honestly, where are you pulling this stuff about ABW wanting to solve all problems without including all races in the discussion, and believing all whites to be haters and racists? She never said anything like that. Seriously… you seem to have a real habit of twisting the things people say (and putting words in their mouths that they don’t say). Please stop.

Though I’m glad to see you haven’t left the discussion yet. I really think it’s good that you stay here and keep listening…

The thing is, I don’t really know how you can convey that in an argument successfully unless the privileged party — white, male, hetero, whatever — is willing to acknowledge their own lack of experience in issues of prejudice and take you at your word and *listen.*

ABW has that post about how it isn’t up to whites to decide when racism is over; they don’t experience it. She’s absolutely right. But if white people don’t come to the discussion accepting that premise, how can they learn anything? They have to listen to the experiences of people *without* white privilege and accept the fact that in this area, their opinions *are* less valid. I think that’s very tough for people to accept. It means giving up some of that privilege they’ve always taken for granted. So to them, it seems like you’re… I dunno, somehow disenfranchising them or something (which is as ridiculous as claims about her white-bashing and reverse racism, but I think that’s how Michael and some other white people are reacting on this forum).

I dunno. I really like that post by ABW. Wish I could find the link. I think it really gets to the heart of race/gender/sexuality issues in our society, and explains WHY when ABW tells the frustrated white people who come here to shut up and listen, she’s right. They should. But too many of them won’t.

Also interesting in your comments about white folks being pulled out of their cars and beaten to an inch of their lives or minorities burning their “OWN” neighborhoods. First and foremost ask yourself why would you see that on TV and nothing about the countless times minorities are beaten and killed even by the POLICE? Who is supposedly hired to protect and serve everyone.

For you to even say that and I quote “people demonstrating while burining[SIC] the flag of the nation they want to be a part of” illustrates to me that perhaps you don’t consider minorities a part of this nation to begin with. As when white folks burn the American flag they are exercising their rights in front of God and everyone without there ever being a recourse! Thats part of the issue in of itself stating that “we” want to be a part of this nation is insulting. “We” are a part of this nation our fathers and mothers bled the ground red to build this country without receiving a dime. I was born here, I’m an American citizen just like everyone else born here. If we aren’t a part of this nation I shudder to think what would be needed to pass the entrance exam!

I digress, really how I see it and it’s just my opinion is that it’s easy to say in the free market all things are possible with just a little bit of elbow grease “a dollar and a dream”. However, in business ,as I’m guessing you’re involved with, it’s not just about how hard you work it’s about what school did you go to, what school did your parents go to, who you know thats connected, how much you gave to your political party. The reality is that minorities are tired of not being allowed to participate in this very system you’re saying we need to participate in!

Whats even more frustrating is when someone says to affect change requires wealth. Did you know Michael that my father was not allowed to buy real estate in this country 50 years ago and his father and his father too? Did you know that real estate is one of the major trillion (with a T) dollar markets in the world? Did you know that he was not allowed to have his own business? Did you know that when my ancestors were freed they made up the majority of skilled labor in south and yet today own a neglible amount of anything in the south or America for that matter? Do you think that the wealth and power that was garnered during this time in the past is not felt or used today? I would love to tell my son that college is all taken care of because your great grandfather invested in this home on the beach in California but, my great grandfather was not allowed to participate. Just as we are not being allowed to participate now. That wealth that was stolen off of the backs of slaves has passed down from generation to generation and yet for some reason people keep telling me it’s not a problem as long as I work hard. See for someone who is not rejected by society it’s just a matter of looking for the angles and making good business decisions. That “group” of people that you speak of quietly making changes, I’ve been waiting 20 years and if this is what they had in mind I’m disappointed.

VJS

And when did I ever say white people sit up nights looking for ways to screw African Americans? Uh… just to let you know… my family is culturally *white*. My mother is half-Korean and was adopted into a white family as a child; I have no relatives in a minority group and no cultural heritage to speak of. I was raised in a white neighborhood, a white school, and one of the most segregated cities in Florida. I speak from a white identity. Get it? But racism pisses me off. Immensely. Just like sexism.

I don’t think white people look purposefully for ways to screw over people of color, in general. But it *happens,* for all kinds of reasons connected to economics, privilege, and power. Historically, white power structures *have* royally screwed over black people, as well as native americans and other ethnic minorites. That is a fact.

Now, as far as the free market goes, how about actually addressing the points ABW brought up? And kindly don’t bend my words again.