Welcome, people from reddit. Before you comment on this post, may I direct you to the top of the page where the “Rules of Engagement” are linked? I suggest you read that page very carefully. You also might want to check out the Required Reading since the comment you’re about to make has probably been made by hundreds of others before you. ~ABW
For those of you out there reading this (all 6 of you) who don’t know who I am, I’ll poke my toe out of the closet a bit and reveal that I’m a science fiction and fantasy fan. I love the genre down to the core of my being. I love writing SF, reading SF, and watching SF television. I used to love watching SF television a lot more. now I’m just left wondering why the universe is so fucking full of white people.~Major case in point: Battlestar Galactica. I’m speaking of the new show here, not the old one. If you look at that show for about 10 minutes (any 10 minutes will do) you might notice that there is a major lack of people of color. It’s not a trick, that’s just how the whole show is. I don’t watch this show. I have watched some episodes and I have heard a lot about it, but I missed the mini-series and thus couldn’t get into it at first.
Here’s the story as I understand it: BG takes place in the present, but in a system far, far away where there are 12 colonies/planets of humans who are technologically advanced. They have lots of spaceships. Not just the military, but everyone. They built these robots called Cylons, but the Cylons were allowed to watch movies like Terminator and 2001: A Space Odyssey and The Matrix and got it into their heads that they would be happier if they blew up all the humans. So they blew up the 12 colonies and a bunch of the ships and decimated the human race until there were only like 50,000 of them left or something. All of the humans who were left piled on board this big ship called Galactica and the remaining civilian ships and ran the hell away from the Cylons. Now you’re caught up.
12 colonies or planets filled with humans. So far I have seen exactly 2 black people (one was killed 42 minutes after he showed up on the screen), one Asian person (who isn’t even human, she’s a Cylon in disguise), one Latino person (whose son, for some crazy reason, is played by a white dude), and that’s it. The rest of the people are all white. White people everywhere. This is stupid. If you have billions of humans on 12 planets I refuse to believe that only the white people would survive. Statistics say so. Unless there weren’t many black people on the colonies to begin with.
I think the backstory is that Earth was the home colony that people flew away from millennia ago. Apparently only white people were smart enough to build spaceships to fly away from earth and took along a few darkies so that they could create some ‘exotic’ babies every now and then. Or maybe SciFi channel just sucks ass. I think that might be the case.
What else can you say about a network that allowed the guy who made the Earthsea movie turn all of the people white except for that one guy? On Stargate the black people are all slaves, but the white people might be slaves or they might be rulers or they might be accountants. On Atlantis they gathered together scientists and military folks from countries all over the world, and yet the only person of color from Earth is the one military guy. All of the other black folks come from another galaxy. From backwards, tribal planets no less. Oh, except for that one Asian chick in that one episode.
Don’t get me started on Andromeda.
I’m not the only one who noticed this. A guy named Max wrote a letter to SciFi Channel’s Science Fiction Weekly called Atlantis and Battlestar Dis Diversity saying pretty much what I’ve said here. This, of course, brought privileged white people out of their dark caves to make ignorant-ass statements like:
If Max’s logic is to be followed, then it is apparently impossible for anyone to enjoy, sympathize with or understand any on-screen actors, storylines or characters which are not explicitly of the same gender, sexual orientation or ethnicity as the viewer.
Is this what results from so-called diversity consciousness? Thinking which has become so narrow, and empathy which has become so shrunken, that we’re now more isolated as human beings than ever before?
…
I am amazed that anyone who consumes fantasy or science fiction can still play the racial bean-counting game. Hell, half the time, fantasy and science-fiction heroes aren’t even human, to say nothing of foolish quibbling over skin color.
from Racial Bean-Counting Is Bogus by Brad R. Torgersen
Brad is clueless on so many levels, I don’t even know where to start. But the language he uses reveals his not-so-hidden prejudices:
When Ripley was battling the horrible aliens, I didn’t have any problem getting behind her, even if she was a woman. When Morpheus went to war with the artificial world of The Matrix, I cheered, even though he was black. Adama, as the leader of the refugee Colonial fleet, is a very sympathetic figure, even if he is Hispanic. Angela Bassett’s character Mace, from the under-rated movie Strange Days, was my favorite in that film, even though she was both female and African-American.
(emphasis mine)
Good to know that even if someone is so unlucky as to be Black, Hispanic, Female, or any combination of those, it’s still okay to cheer for and like them. Even. If.
The current letters page has a thoughtful response to Brad’s little rant (see Race Will Always Be With Us on March 10). My own response is that it’s very easy for those who don’t have to think about race (read: white men) to say that ethnic minorities should stop counting how many ethnic minorities are represented in the media they watch (not to mention how they are represented) and just enjoy the fact that there are some. That’s just ignorant, people. Ignorant.
White, heterosexual men have the luxury of being able to turn to 99% of the channels beamed into their TVs and see themselves portrayed in a manner that makes them comfortable and happy. Most white women, do, too. Minorities of most any stripe do not have that luxury. This is especially true of ethnic minorities. Why do we ‘bean count’? Because we can. That’s not flippancy, that’s a fact. I can look at my TV and count the number of black people I see because there are so few of them and they tend to stand out in the sea of whiteness. I’m getting sick of it, myself. How about the rest of you?
At this point, I refuse to watch any more telelvision where the universe is full of white people. Battlestar Galactica might be a fine show. Well-written, interesting science fiction is hard to come by on TV. Well-written, interesting SF with an accurately representative number of minorities is about as hard to come by as diamonds in horse shit. It’s not acceptable any more. Television is On Notice as of now. If I don’t see more black people and other persons of color on my TV not acting like fools and niggers I will start a fatwa. And no one wants that.
(p.s. This isn’t a problem just in Sci-Fi TV, check out my Why is CSI so damn White? rant and the ensuing race war here)
Delux,
Yeah, I was wondering that myself. BET is neither black (owned) nor entertaining, and while we’re at it I’d hesitate to call it television…
You need to get over yourself.
At least BSG has a few token people of color. Name me any gay person in any sci fi show?
Bottom line is, the vast majority of people in our culture are white, and the vast majority of them are straight. I therefore take it as no personal offense when popular culture is heterocentric or whitecentric.
It’s sad when people won’t stand behind their words with a name. Even a fake name will do.
“Name me any gay person in any sci fi show?”
Captain Jack Harkness, Toshiko Sato, Admiral Cain, Jadzia Dax, Xena, Gabrielle, Miranda Calender (and her assistant). If I actually did research instead of going off the top of my head, I could come up with more.
“Bottom line is, the vast majority of people in our culture are white,”
No, the bottom line actually is that the vast majority of television shows take place in cities on the East or West Coasts, and the percentage of non-white people in those cities is larger than the percentage of non-white people in America in general. Therefore, the shows should be representative of that and they aren’t.
The bottom line actually is that science fiction programming takes place mostly in the future, and if you look around right now white people are in the minority globally, and most of these shows have a global premise. So why can’t their casting reflect that? You can’t convince me that earth of the future is only sparsely populated by white folks unless a genocide happened. That’s not in the backstory.
The bottom line actually is that the practice of excluding minorities except in tokened and sometimes racist roles is absolutely, completely immoral and wrong. And if you don’t understand that, there’s something wrong with *you*.
“I therefore take it as no personal offense…”
It doesn’t matter what you do or don’t take offense at. You’re not the one the offense is perpetrated on.
I’m not a gay man. So if I’m walking down the street and I hear someone scream FAGGOT, I’m less likely to be personally hurt by it. That person isn’t talking to me, isn’t insulting me, isn’t even thinking about me. But, judging from your comment, you may well be a gay man. And it may well anger, hurt, or embarrass you to have someone scream FAGGOT. Do I get to tell you to get over it?
Anonymous,
That’s the most bass-ackwards crap I’ve ever heard. You complain that gay people aren’t getting representation, so black people should shut up. But you’re perfectly fine with the fact that gay people aren’t getting representation… so black people should shut up?
This pretty much explains in a nutshell why black people *shouldn’t* shut up, and why us being yappy helps gay people too… and why people like *you* should shut up, if you’re going to rationalize your bigotry that badly. Good grief, at least *try* to sound rational.
also, what Nora said.
Howdy. Just happened to follow a link to your site. Goodness, it’s refreshing to read a blog commenting on this stuff! I don’t watch a lot of sci-fi/fantasy, but I do read and write it, and I watch crime dramas on TV. You are absolutely right and the fact that many people react so defensively shows how deeply embedded racism is in our society.
There’s only one small point of your argument I disagree with: “White, heterosexual men have the luxury of being able to turn to 99% of the channels beamed into their TVs and see themselves portrayed in a manner that makes them comfortable and happy. Most white women, do, too.”
I am a half-White/half-Korean woman and in general, television portrayal of women does not make me comfortable and happy. Which isn’t to say things are as bad for white women as for people of color — they’re not! At least women are in these shows. Sometimes they even get strong leading roles, though only if they are white of course. However, in most shows that aren’t geared specifically to women (meaning the genres I watch: action, crime, mystery, medical dramas, etc), the women who are in the show mostly just look pretty. They’re not as developed, strong, or interesting as the male leads. There are exceptions and television is getting better about it, but by and large it’s still very male-centric.
I have to look very hard to find shows with good female leads. Stuff like Prime Suspect, The Closer, maybe FX’s Damages (haven’t seen it yet). So I would say that for 99 percent of white males, yeah things look good. But for white females you have to really search for stuff that’s decent, once you go outside of traditionally women’s genres.
The difference in magnitude of the problem is that if I look hard enough, it’s there. I can usually find something. Whereas I have yet to find a single crime/mystery series that has a Black, Latino, or Asian lead character — let alone a woman of that color. It’s a huge problem. Anyone who thinks otherwise is… well, probably a white male.
Keep fighting the good fight. And keep putting your voice out there! Sci-fi/fantasy writers and aspiring writers (like me) need to hear it.
Hi. I have been a lurker on your blog for some time, but I have never posted a reply to anything. Today that changes.
I agree with your assessment that Minorities are under-represented in Sci-Fi. However, I am not certain that there is any malicious intent behind this unfortunate truth.
I have had the good fortune to spend over 30 years in the advertising world. While it is not television or movie production, it is very similar. Casting calls for actors and actresses are done basically the same way for commercials as they are for TV or movies. The one thing that I can honestly say is that while most of the projects that I have worked on over the years have failed to be reflective of American demographics (most were skewed disproportionately white), I have rarely felt that this result was due to a malicious racist plot. Rather, it was actually more the result of happenstance.
While this point of view may be anathema for many who prefer to see conspiracy behind every corner, it is nevertheless what I have observed. White people don’t intend to exclude minorities. They simply don’t think about us. The idea that their work is exclusionary often doesn’t even occur to them.
This blog probably rarely speaks on or advocates the rights of the Shia majority in Iraq. Despite their majority status, the Shia have not held power for more than 1,300 years. Are you anti-Shia because you never mention them in any of your writings? No, of course you aren’t. Rather, you suffer from the same ailment as so many in our society (and the societies of countries around the world); cultural myopia. Most people view the world through the filter of their own attitudes, beliefs, values, and experience. It is a normal and natural human behavior. I have travelled the world quite extensively, and have observed the same thing in country after country.
The early Greek philosopher Xenophanes said, “Yes, and if oxen and horses or lions had hands, and could paint with their hands, and produce works of art as men do, horses would paint the forms of the gods like horses, and oxen like oxen, and make their bodies in the image of their several kinds”.
I would be willing to wager that those who make the shows on Sci-Fi Channel didn’t even realize the omission until it was pointed out to them (if it has been pointed out to them). In their culturally myopic world, things truly ARE predominantly white male.
Once again, I am not justifying the omission. I am just saying that it is probably not intentional or something that was CONSCIOUSLY done.
IMO, more minorities need to become producers of the programming that we consume , be it on TV, moves, print, or the internet (even in the form of blogs like your own). That is the only way that all aspects of society will ever truly be represented in a fair and unbiased fashion.
But of course I could be completely wrong. As Harry Dresden once said on The Dresden Files, “Just because you’re paranoid doesn’t mean that there isn’t an invisible demon about to eat your face”.
Until the day when you produce your own sci-fi show that boast a cast filled with minorities, perhaps we can take solace in the fact that in the future world of The Matrix, Blacks seem to be the predominant survivors (although the Savior is, of course, a white male).
I for one never really believed that casting directers don’t make conscious decisions about ignoring people of color but I get concerned about some negative/hostile attitudes of some when any POC questions/comments on the fact or shows some wish to see others like them.
Some make others feel guilty of asking for others to represent them by trivializing it, then use the same excuse to continue use majority characters (’don’t want to alienate the audience’).
I would very much like to see black owned media markets that will more naturally think of us, but with the way this monopolizing businessworld works it certainly won’t happen overnight. Until then I would like to feel as if I’m not just some thorn in the majority media’s side for mistaking myself as a part of America’s audiences.
TierListE,
Therein lies your mistake. You said that you “would like to feel as though I’m not just some thorn in the majority media’s side….”. IMO, you need to embrace the fact that you are a thorn. I honestly believe that the only color that most of Hollywood sees is green. They respond to things that are going to affect their bottom line. Since their products (movies, tv shows, etc.) are doing quite well, they have no need to change anything. It is only when those like yourself make a pain of yourself by writing to them and complaining (i.e. becoming “thorns”) that they are given an impetus for making change. You know the old saying, “if it ain’t broke, don’t fix it”. We must be sure to loudly and clearly let them know that it is broke. That may mean being a thorn in their sides, but if we don’t do it, who will?
BTW ABW, I apologize if my views aren’t angry enough. As I mentioned in my first post, I am new here and I enjoy the discussions that you foster. However, my opinions tend to be a bit “middle of the road”. I hope that is okay, and that my non-angry points of view are welcome here.
Ha, good point, Dead Man.
Umm…I wonder. Go to your nearest Barnes&Noble, head to the Science Fiction section, and check out the authors. My guess is 90% white men.
Earth to ABW, there is still rampant slavery in Africa. Black Africans are being slaughtered by the Janjaweed in Darfur, and you are bitching about how many black faces you see on a show written, produced, paid for and most likely watched by a vast majority of whities….
If you want to ramble about privilege…take a look in the mirror.
Oh goodie! White people lecturing me about Africa! All of my dreams have finally come true…
Ahem. First, I freely acknowledge my privileges and the blindnesses they cause by default. I may not have white or male privilege, but I do have class, heterosexual, and American privilege. Fortunately, since I’m aware of my privileges, I do what I can to combat ignorance and laziness of mind due to having them and try to be a good ally to those without them.
Your mention of Africa is a good example — I don’t often blog about Africa because I have never been there, don’t have any close friends who are from any of the countries on that continent or know a great deal about them, and I have to do way more to educate myself about the issues of Africa before I can begin to address them properly. Nothing more annoying than an ignorant outsider crashing in to comment and criticize. I know because I experience that every day on this blog.
However, if you’d read ANY other post besides this one and maybe skimmed the front page a bit, you’d notice that lately I’d put out feelers for getting a guest blogger from Africa for the very purpose of talking about the issues they encounter. I am American and my natural focus is on America because I know it. When I want to learn about Africa, I go to an African.
Your snide remarks show that, not only are you NOT a person who is interested in engaging in helpful dialogue about race, but you’re an active suppressor of discussions about race. the oldest tactic in the book is “Why are you paying attention to X when Y is much worse?” Brother, it’s ALL bad. And solving the problem of race relations isn’t a top-down effort. You attack and criticize and do a deep analysis of things on all fronts, from media to current events to history to interpersonal relationships. Why am I bitching about a TV show when bad things are happening elsewhere? because bad things are happening here, son. And I need to call them out.
The bad thing happening in America is lazy ass people sitting on their couches watching too much TV. A study just came out about obesity in America and guess what, African-Americans are leading the pack.
If you really cared about your “community” (or is it simply your own ego that needs assuaging?) you’d be well advised to set an example and drastically cut down on the boob tube, both watching it and commenting on it.
And frankly I find it bizarre when black Americans toss around the word white. Are you talking about Amish, cowboys, Alaskan fishermen, Mormons, Orthodox Jews, Italians, WASP golfers, trailer park truckers, Kentucky coalminers, hippies…???
One thing I think is lost upon most African-Americans is that white people do not see themselves as a group. It is simply blacks projecting their own ingroup attitude on whites.
*falls over laughing at the patheticness*
yet more derailing! “Let’s nopt discuss the actual issues you raise but instead go off on a tangent about obesity and, really, you shouldn’t be watching TV.” *snicker* You’re so funny!
And also with the completely unrelated topic of whites as a group. let’s not talk about what this post is about, let’s talk about… white people!!
Seriously, before you comment again click on the link at the top of the page called “Required Reading” and check out the link for “How to Suppress Discussions of Racism”. After you’ve schooled yourself a little you’re allowed to come challenge me on my views. Cuz right now you’re just being silly and I giggle.
Cuz seriously, you’re just handwaving. You don’t want to confront me on the merits of my argument, possibly because you know you can’t. So instead you’re trying to deflect. This may work on whatever black people are unfortunate enough to know you in real life, but it won’t work on me.
So, go on and educate yourself and then return. If you think educating yourself is too much trouble, then go away. *shrug* either one suits me fine.
I am discussing the actual issue raised which is an obsession with TV. It’s unhealthy, trivial, pointless, and counterproductive.
Soon we will have Hispanics kvetching about how there are too many blacks on TV, and then Asians, and then mixed race people blah blah blah.
And growing up in Chicago where I had to endure Jesse Jackson, Dorothy Tillman and Louis Farrakhan expound nightly on TV (oh, and now Al Sharpton is coming to town…woo hoo) I frankly have heard more than enough about affirmative action and not nearly enough about family values.
Question ABW? If black faces were the majority of faces in science fiction shows, how exactly would that affect the illegitimacy and murder/violence rates in the African-American community???
And so far, you have called me ignorant, accused me of trying to suppress discussion of race, suggested I need to “school myself”, then called me silly and talked about black people “unfortunate enought to know [me]”
Wow, classy lady.
Maybe you are the one trying to suppress discussion of race by focusing on the most trivial of all issues????
“I am discussing the actual issue raised which is an obsession with TV. It’s unhealthy, trivial, pointless, and counterproductive.”
No, dude, the actual issue raised HERE is that there are very few characters of color on television and, of the ones that are there, most of them are negative stereotypes. This discussion is not dictated by YOU because this isn’t your blog. And though I like to give my commenters free reign to bring up tangental subjects I will NOT allow you to come in here and make this discussion about you, derail the topic, and generally turn it away from the point. If you want to discuss the evils of television and its effects on the African-American community, do it on your own blog.
“Soon we will have Hispanics kvetching about how there are too many blacks on TV, and then Asians, and then mixed race people blah blah blah.”
OMG you think? That would be awesome! And then one day people will look around and notice that there are so many of all kinds of people on TV that they can finally watch it without cringing!
Also, you’ve just involved jesse Jackson and Al Sharpton. I’ve recently come to the conclusion that anytime a white person does this it’s like a subset of Godwin’s Law, wherein whenever someone accuses someone else of being “like Hitler” the conversation is pretty much over. Anytime white people start throwing Jackson and Sharpton around like they’re curse words that tells me they can’t have a rational conversation about race. You, son, have crossed over. Can’t help you.
“Question ABW? If black faces were the majority of faces in science fiction shows, how exactly would that affect the illegitimacy and murder/violence rates in the African-American community???”
That question nearly made my mind turn inside out because it’s beginning has almost nothing to do with it’s conclusion. I don’t know if that’s a straw man or a logical fallacy or just plain craziness.
I wonder how classiness comes into my exhortation for you to educate yourself. do people with class never suggest that others not be dumb?
“Maybe you are the one trying to suppress discussion of race by focusing on the most trivial of all issues????”
As I suspected, you’ve not read any of the rest of this website. All right, then! I’m done.
I brought up Jesse et al because I actually am from Chicago and I see a direct parllel between your whining about not enough black faces on TV as more of the same tired old affirmative action bs.
And if on the next season of American Idol, the five finalists are all black women (voted in by those racist white people) I pray not one single white person would complain. I would just sit back and enjoy the show.
And one final question, not that I am expecting an answer ABW, seeing as 1/3 of Americans are obese, shouldn’t there be more fat people on TV, and don;t even get me started on the lack of ugly people in the media.
It’s a national disgrace…..
^^^ARRRGH!! The bullshit makes my eyes bleed!
Also, you’ve just involved jesse Jackson and Al Sharpton. I’ve recently come to the conclusion that anytime a white person does this it’s like a subset of Godwin’s Law, wherein whenever someone accuses someone else of being “like Hitler” the conversation is pretty much over.
ABW, you just made me snort water out of my nose. Hee. Right on.
OverItAllWhiteGuy, why are you here if you’re so over it all?
Again, this post isn’t about any of the issues you brought up, and as you’re calling AA bullshit, it invalidates just about everything you have to say.
But I will note that I have always maintained that there should be more people of different body types and different standards of beauty on TV. No, let me correct that, More WOMEN of different body types and beauty standards. It’s not hard to find ugly and/or fat men on television. But again, that’s a topic for a different post.
Er… Overitallwhiteguy… what does slavery in Africa have to do with issues of race on American television? Seems a bit of a stretch. I’m seeing it like this:
ABW: Black people get crap roles on TV. It sux.
Overitallwhiteguy: Earth to ABW, there is still rampant slavery in Africa.
ABW: Er… Latinas also get crap roles on TV. So not fair.
Overitallwhiteguy: Earth to ABW, there is still rampant poverty in Mexico.
ABW: Ugh… Okay… I’m going to the doctor. Feeling nauseous from all the bs.
Overitallwhiteguy: Earth to ABW! PEOPLE ALL OVER THE WORLD ARE DYING FROM AIDS! IN COMPARISON TO THEM YOUR NAUSEA IS MAGNIFICENT! If you want to ramble about privilege…take a look in the mirror.
“And one final question, not that I am expecting an answer ABW, seeing as 1/3 of Americans are obese, shouldn’t there be more fat people on TV, and don;t even get me started on the lack of ugly people in the media.
It’s a national disgrace…..”
If the overrepresentation of pretty people is a national disgrace, why not the overrepresentation of white people? I mean, of course having only pretty faces skews our thinking. We begin to place value in the superficial qualities we see enshrined on television. Fatness seems bad. TV doesn’t reflect reality (in which many people are fat).
… but don’t you think that this is the case for race as well? And the enshrinement not only of beauty and thinness, but *white* beauty and thinness, might not be so good to those who aren’t, well, white?
This comment says a lot “As for your accusation that I’m ’stuck on race,’ I will have to say Yes, I Am. Can’t help it. You have the privilege to ignore race when you want to, even in your own home. As a person living in brown skin, I cannot. But thank you for making me feel better about that.”
I used to think it was curious, as a kid, to know there were only about four black kids in my class; to watch television, and see one or two shows that focused on black families.
White people do have the priviledge of not thinking about race. We don’t have to worry about whether the white employer might be racist, or worry about how naming our children “Jennifer” or “Daniel” might effect them on an online job application.
We simply don’t have to deal with it. Most of our families; our communities; our schools; our medial–it’s white dominated. Even high school and college classes focusing on “African American History,” seem to evade some deeper dynamics of history and current problems. And they too, seem to be most often “suggested courses” for black students more so then white students.
In history, we were taught that the “founding fathers” of our country; European pilgrims; and wealthy white bankers built this country. We may learn who invented peanut butter or about who sat in the front of a bus, but we aren’t taught the complexity of economy and of society in a way that most poingantly focuses on diversity; and the irony and irreparable damage of how it’s come to be.
It’s sad that there are so few courses of enlightenment toward understanding it for white people, when it seems to be one of the biggest definining attribute of our country.
Hi ABW, :)
I just wanted to point out that one of the main characters on BattlesStar Galactica is a black woman (”Dee” Anastasia Dualla) and she plays Apollo’s (Admiral Adama’s son) wife and she is smokin! I think it’s wonderful to see an interracial relationship on such a high profile show.
Watched BET for while, they make no pretense of including whites in programming. So I turned the channel, no big deal. I really don’t see the issue. Writers of these programs are under no obligation to include a certain race or gender (although it would be smart business practice to appeal to a wide audience). They create a product, and like any product on the shelf at a supermarket, we are free to buy it, or spend our money on something else that is more to our liking. Good observations on these TV shows, but we all individually have control over the remote control.
And not to plop myself into the middle of that arguement, but I think a few people were trying way too hard to NOT understand what ALLOVERIT was trying to say. He was simply making comment on the relevance of discussing the racial make up of TV shows, when there is obviously more critical issues that seem to demand our attention and blog space. How did you not get that? Howver you are correct, this is your blog and I enjoy reading it and being a part of it. But I do think there is so much much groupthink and herd mentality when it comes to race, a little balance and dissent is refreshing.
Trivializing an issue by claiming there are more important things to worry about is one of the classic methods of dismissing it — *without* addressing the problem in a way that is meaningful or productive. It is a method of dismissal that has been used against every type of activist — feminists, animal rights activists, workers rights advocates, etc. Yes there are big problems in the world. But you know what? Saying that doesn’t negate the little problems. And it doesn’t help anyone (except those who don’t want to address the issue). What helps is directly addressing the issues when they are brought up.
Michael, you say, “So I turned the channel, no big deal.” That’s very nice for you. You can find what you want by changing the channel. I can’t. If I want a television show with a strong, tough, interesting female lead, I have to search online and order it on DVD. If I want a crime drama with an African American female lead, I may never find it (I can’t think of one off the top of my head — and I watch a lot of crime/mystery shows).
If I am an aspiring actress hoping to get the part of a strong, interesting, well-developed character in mainstream TV and I am a person of color? … tough luck.
To me, that seems very unfair. And then what sort of image of themselves do you think children get when they only see a certain type of person (white men) making great accomplishments in their favorite shows? When they only see themselves as thugs or busty damsels or side characters, or not at all? I can tell you from personal experience that the image is not a positive one. There are all kinds of reasons why having only white people in shows is problematic.
I think the issue is important. I think it is important because I know the impact it has had on my psyche, growing up. I have seen the impact it has had on my sisters’ psyches. It has not been a good impact. I suspect you have not felt this same impact. Who are you to tell me, then, that it’s not a problem?
Guess I’m not wanted here! lol
what do you say that, D3?
Michael said “Watched BET for while, they make no pretense of including whites in programming. So I turned the channel, no big deal. ”
Umm. Yeah. Well.
a) BET sucks — and, at the top of the food chain, is not “made” by Black people (any more than most “Black” radio is).
b) When you “turned the channel, no big deal”, did it occur to you that THE OTHER 149 CHANNELS WERE MOSTLY FOCUSED ON WHITE PEOPLE?? Oh, except Univision I guess. And the Korean soap operas. Shit, if I want to see positive/reasonably informed protrayals of/discusion relevant to Muslims, I have to go to a friends house and watch satellite TV from the Middle East! And half of those channels you can’t even get in the US any more because ignorant Americans who don’t even speak Arabic have declared them “Terrorist TV”.
It’s “no big deal” to turn the channel when it involves turning from the one tiny slice of the mediasphere that doesn’t target your demographic to the 99.9% that does. The rest of us don’t have it so easy, dude.
Good comments all and excellent points. However, I am indeed dismissive of it because I deeply understand that the way fix it is not to beat people over the head until they do something to your liking as opposed to seeing it as an opportunity to step up and solve it. I live in Houston where we have 14 english radio stations (7 “white” as you would call it and 6 primarily AA), 12 hispanic, 4 asian, and even several that are “Farsi”. SO indeed somebody gets what I’m saying. If there is a absence of programming that suits you, fill the void. Listen, I not saying its smart business to not be inclusive, so please don’t understand me. I just see this as an opportunity. And being the evil capitalist :-) that I am, would see this as a great untapped market. So are you telling me that BET is white owned, or is it corporately owned and that is code or typically synonomous with “white”, as i am sure there is not one single, solitary AA in that company :-). All points well taken, but I still see the issue as more simplistic; companies make products for who they wish, and TV and radio are no different. We are free to patronize them or not, as we are free to create companies and products that compete and fill that need. Again, don’t misunderstand me, I not saying its fine and you should just deal with it. But we should never want our government or anyone else mandating what public companies produce, sell, or say. As stupid as it is for them to ignore a key market group, they do have do have the right to be that stupid.
Ok, had to look it up, BET is owned by Viacom. Is this an evil white organization or a public company owned by its shareholders……I’ll have the employee diversity breakdowns shortly from the Dept of Labor so we can see how just how evil it is since Saladin considers it irrelevant due to its not being privately owned by a AA.
we are free to create companies and products that compete and fill that need.
Michael, it’s a pretty strange definition of “free” that only encompasses the tiny percentage of people on the planet with the kind of capital it takes to start a TV network. I’m “free” to buy a million-dollar yacht, too, on paper. Freedoms don’t mean a whole lot when they’re only accessible to the elite few.
But I think the point of “BET sucks” is that it runs unintelligent, exploitative programming that insults its audience, not a function of who the owners are. Of course it’s run by a corporation, all networks are, which is why TV exists to sell products, not for its potential as an artistic and informational medium.
realpotato, that is precisely the defintition of free. Access to captial is another discussion and indeed is a difficult process. Most companies are grown, not simply plopped down by an elite few, I live this every day. Access to capital will always be difficult and is intended to be a gate to starting a business. Potato, this is where you need to stay on point and understand where we differentiate “free” and “fundamental ffreedoms” that allow people to persue whatever they want. Of course not everyone has a million dollars, of course you are “free” to want or buy anything you want, but you are not entitled to simply be given money to give the illusion that you are somehow equal to people that have struggled, planned, and given much of themselves to start a business. However you do have the “freedom” to create a business plan, develop a market, go for funding like every other public company and become one of those often hated and criticized companies :-). Not all of the “elite few” were simple placed there by some white divine intervention. Next point: uh potato, you missed his point, he said it sucked precisely BECAUSE it is not sensitive to AA community as a function of its ownership (code for the leadership being white). Of course TV exists to sell products through its medium. However, its ability to sell iproducts through its shows is still baseline market demand. Again, not to be too insensitive to the issue, but I wouldn’t (nor would you if you were interested in making money) create a product that was only in demand by a small # of potential customers. I say this again and again, don’t misunderstand me, but I do not believe this to be some grand plan to purposely show AAs in a negative or stereotpyical manner. As demographics change, so shouldl programming ito keep pace if they hope to stay in business, but that is their decision, to be stupid, or to be ahead of the curve. I see people every day shoving biz plans in my face with great ideas….but I’ve never seen one, not one, for a startup, nor the purchase and conversion of an existing one focused on AA-centered entertainment. Ok…..am I the only one seeing the huge, hairy, screaming, opportunity in the blog? Love the conversation, thank all for the tolerance of dissent, its helps us all….peace
Remember when white people use to say that aliens built the Egyptian pyramids, because they themselves could not figure out how the pyramids were built?
Then, when they got a probe with a small camera on the tip to fit into an opening of one of the tombs, they found there were pictures of black figures painted on the inside walls. These black figures were people…Black People! People on the walls were of different shades of brown and black. Which meant, if aliens built the pyramids, then those aliens were people of color!
And, if Aliens were Black people who can traverse throughout the universe, then they are more intelligent than the white people who cannot figure out how the pyramids were built. Hence, the need for propaganda on their part.
The propaganda in the Battlestar Galactica series is the same as the invention of Superman, when the Brown Bomber was blasting white boys in the boxing ring.
Stephen Marley articulates it prominently in his song ‘Mind Control’.
Arrghh, now that what I call really working to hard to make some kind of point….but well Ok I guess, let me get my tin foil hat…:-)
Michael, I never suggested that the government mandate what privately owned companies market and sell. My argument is simply that this *is* a supremely important issue here in America, because what we see on television and in movies shapes our perceptions of the world — often in very negative ways where race and gender are concerned. As I have mentioned, I’ve seen its effects on my family, on my students, and on me. Something needs to be done.
What did ABW do? Rant about it. Blog about it. Make the issue public and throw it out into the world. That’s *exactly* what needs to happen. We need to complain, to kick and scream, to raise consciousness about this to both consumers and companies. Some people try to shout us down, saying “this isn’t an important issue” or “you’re seeing racism where there is none.” We will not be shouted down, because it *is* an important issue and the racism is invisible to those who don’t experience it.
As for the free market — I think we can see from things like pollution, the spread of deadly pesticides and cancerous materials, shady drug testing/development performed on impoverished populations in Africa, etc., that the free market is not concerned with human welfare. The only way to make it concerned is to raise a public outcry about it.
To reiterate: this is an important issue and it needs to be voiced, LOUDLY and FREQUENTLY, or things will never change.
Michael, how do you suggest we black folk “step up”, as you put it, to get the things we want on television? Do you not understand how getting things on television work? Do you not get that most of the channels on your TV are controlled by companies that don’t employ anything but the bare minimum of minorities, the majority of whom are not in the top echelon and therefore able to force inclusiveness? Do you understand that television and movie media people actively work to make sure that a white person (preferably male) is at the lead of every show that isn’t specifically about minorities and even some that are? Ask BetaCandy sometime about her experience as a screenwriter. Ask Reginald Hudlin sometime about his struggle to create programming that isn’t relegated to the ghetto of the TV only black people watch. Ask the author of “I Left My Heart at Wounded Knee” about how it felt for producers of the movie to insist that they needed a “white perspective” to carry audiences through a story that was, indeed, not about white people AT ALL.
Do you understand that it’s not as simple as “If you write it, they will watch”? Because even if you write it, it may not be produced. Even if it gets produced, you may not have control. Even if you have control, it may not been seen by a mainstream audience. Even if it’s seen by a mainstream audience, how much of that audience will write it off as “some black stuff” and not watch it, thereby causing a drop in key demographics, thereby losing advertisers, thereby being canceled, even if it has high ratings?
Of course stuff like this happens to white-generated media, too. (ask Joss Whedon). But the fact is that it happens far, FAR more often to black visual media than white visual media.
ICO, absolutely ABW brings it to the attention of people. That’s one of the reason I love this blog. I’m suggesting that there is are alternatives to simply forcing old-school businesses to change thier ways. Most will not change until competition forces them to change. Lets face it, nobody wants government to mandate the change and thereby loose even more of our freedoms. But ICO, free market is not evil, what is going on in Africa is not symtomatic of a free market, it is a function of corrupt government and an uneducated, population kept poor by that government (not to mention warlords). Yes the free market is imperfect, yes if has its tragedies. But my point is simply this; rasing consciencous is important, ranting and blogging is all key as well, but at the end of the day, action is better. Last night I was getting a book for a long flight I’m taking, and I also saw a Black Enterprise Magazine, and as a result of this discussion, read a little of it…WOW…what a great message! Its about exactly what i am saying; translating the “consciencenous, and ranting” into business success. And the example of the BE Business Person of the year is cool! So that’s all I am saying, I am biased towards action, starting a biz that competes and embarasses companies that don’t see the opportunity that we see. Difficult? Yes!, Impossible” Hell no! So I understand completely the frustration 100%, I just have different ideas of a different solution. Banging my head against a wall in hopes that it creates a door is a waste of my time, I’d rather make my point by kicking thier ass where it counts…balance sheet and market share. And ABW, i understand its hard functioning in the “old-guard” companies…..even for whites. Beleive it or not, we still sometimes have to kiss the right ass to get somewhere, and beleive me, we don’t always feel like puckering up! Love the discussion!! You guys rock!
I think you need to look more closely at what ABW just said. You want to “kick their ass where it counts.” She just explained quite clearly why kicking their ass has not already happened. Don’t you think people are trying? Have been trying for decades?
Of course action is important. I fully agree with you there; what I don’t agree with is your comment that “banging my head against a wall in hopes it creates a door is a waste of my time.” This head-banging — ranting, speaking out — is an action, and one of the most potent ones we can take and a necessary step in any movement. Name one social movement that didn’t involve dissemination of information — songs, pamphlets, speeches, writings, often angry ones that fire other people up. If people are uninformed or unaware, how can they change? I think most people commenting on this blog do both. Speak out here, and in their daily lives act. As much as we possibly can, until the world changes.
As far as Africa is concerned… It’s not relevant to the subject at hand, but before sparing the free market and the corporations of blame you ought to read “The Body Hunters” by Sonia Shah. It’s quite shocking and will open your eyes to some very horrific realities of one of the largest and most powerful industries in the world: pharmaceuticals. And how, like so many giant industries powered largely by white people, they royally screw black people. In maddeningly atrocious ways.
Ico, Please, explain that logic to me: Nice sentiments….songs, phamplets and ranting…how sweet, certainly thats your choice and I respect that. But..its all focused at wanting “evil white corporations” to provide more product for you, when you outwardly detest them (even though many are owned and/or managed by AAs, go pick up that Black Enterprise mag as a start) Thats no motivation for a company to do anything and it certainly is only a surface level fix when they do. It changes absolutely nothing in their personal core beliefts, which, in my opinion, is the only path to lasting change. I’ll read “The Bounty Hunters”, when you take the time to read “Capitalism and Freedom”, by Thomas Friedman and begin to understand what I am talking about when it comes to real freedom, economic “Freedom” for any race of people, it ALL starts there. You can call ranting, phamplets, speaking out, etc, “action” if you desire. Its certainly better than doing nothing, but not much more. Economic freedom will give you that, it will take more work, and it certainly isn’t as easy as sitting in front of a computer, or creating phamplets. You will NEVER gain economic freedom by simply forcing companies (apparently all owned by evil white men even though we know that a public company is owned by its shareholders that make up a wide variety of races, after all, everyon loves investing). “The Bounty Hunters” is in no way an accurate portrait of all corporations….and Pharmasueticals (a industry that primarily supports the democrats by the way) is not indicative of all corporations’ dealings with people. Ico, new flash: it may be hard for you to beleive, but we white people do not sit up nights looking for ways to screw African Americans. Clearly there are some, and there are blacks that openly call for the murder of white people, but those are fringe loonies. Read the book, and then lets talk. You will grow old and tired with that head beating, but i certainly will respect your right to keep beating it. Peace and thanks…..good discussion!
And lets not generalize on ’so many giant industries powered by white people screwing black people”. AAs have fought long and hard to ensure people do not generalize or stereotype blacks, so now is as good of time as any to start practicing what you preach. All whites are not out to screw blacks, neither in corporate america, nor in personal life. Period
How carefully did you read my remarks, Michael? I said words *and* action. Not one without the other. Martin Luther King Jr. led people in peaceful actions, but he also communicated his message frequently in speeches, in letters, etc. Every social movement — the feminist movement, the civil rights movement, the Black Power movement, etc — used communication to gets its message across while simultaneously taking action. Not one without the other. How difficult is that to understand? Blogs like this — they form the education and outreach, the communication and awareness-raising part of things. Have you ever participated in an activist group? Amnesty International? An LGBT group? If you do, I think you’ll find a big part of social movements is dissemination of information. Raising consciousness. And action too, yes. BOTH. I said both. If you will read my post.
And when did I ever say white people sit up nights looking for ways to screw African Americans? Uh… just to let you know… my family is culturally *white*. My mother is half-Korean and was adopted into a white family as a child; I have no relatives in a minority group and no cultural heritage to speak of. I was raised in a white neighborhood, a white school, and one of the most segregated cities in Florida. I speak from a white identity. Get it? But racism pisses me off. Immensely. Just like sexism.
I don’t think white people look purposefully for ways to screw over people of color, in general. But it *happens,* for all kinds of reasons connected to economics, privilege, and power. Historically, white power structures *have* royally screwed over black people, as well as native americans and other ethnic minorites. That is a fact.
Now, as far as the free market goes, how about actually addressing the points ABW brought up? And kindly don’t bend my words again.
ICO, we’ll agree to differ on our methods, approaches and interpretations. I have seen very few positive outcomes of marches, endless rhetoric, and pot bashing. And I have personally seen MLK speak, at a rally having lived in Memphis for years before moving to Houston. (In fact I was out having dinner with my brother when we got the news he had been shot). I know what positive action looks like so perhaps I’m jaded. I see nothing even remotely positive or MLK-like from the past recent years of movements. I’ve seen whites, pulled from cars and beat within an inch of thier life, I’ve seen minorities trashing and burning their OWN neighborhoods, I’ve seen the street of Houston clogged with people demonstrating while burining the flag of the nation they want to be a part of…….all on TV, and all in front of God and everyone, with no recourse! This does nothing but reinforce stereotypes and forge a stronger resistance. I agree with you MLK-type movements are inspiring and amazing, but those have long since disappeared and have been replaced by the rhetorical beating of people over the head. Meanwhile, there is a group of people quietly making real changes in the power structure. Ico, I respect your views and certainly not wanting to bend words, but these are all relevant. An jsut for clarification, you invoked Africa, I simply pointed out the root cause of the issues in that country. Love the discussion and debate! Peace!
This is an interesting debate to watch here it seems as thought Michael has taken the position that as long as we (minorities) work hard we should be able to acheive whatever we desire. Which is a fair assumption if the playing fields were level however, I think we both can agree they are not.
Also interesting in your comments about white folks being pulled out of their cars and beaten to an inch of their lives or minorities burning their “OWN” neighborhoods. First and foremost ask yourself why would you see that on TV and nothing about the countless times minorities are beaten and killed even by the POLICE? Who is supposedly hired to protect and serve everyone.
For you to even say that and I quote “people demonstrating while burining[SIC] the flag of the nation they want to be a part of” illustrates to me that perhaps you don’t consider minorities a part of this nation to begin with. As when white folks burn the American flag they are exercising their rights in front of God and everyone without there ever being a recourse! Thats part of the issue in of itself stating that “we” want to be a part of this nation is insulting. “We” are a part of this nation our fathers and mothers bled the ground red to build this country without receiving a dime. I was born here, I’m an American citizen just like everyone else born here. If we aren’t a part of this nation I shudder to think what would be needed to pass the entrance exam!
I digress, really how I see it and it’s just my opinion is that it’s easy to say in the free market all things are possible with just a little bit of elbow grease “a dollar and a dream”. However, in business ,as I’m guessing you’re involved with, it’s not just about how hard you work it’s about what school did you go to, what school did your parents go to, who you know thats connected, how much you gave to your political party. The reality is that minorities are tired of not being allowed to participate in this very system you’re saying we need to participate in!
Whats even more frustrating is when someone says to affect change requires wealth. Did you know Michael that my father was not allowed to buy real estate in this country 50 years ago and his father and his father too? Did you know that real estate is one of the major trillion (with a T) dollar markets in the world? Did you know that he was not allowed to have his own business? Did you know that when my ancestors were freed they made up the majority of skilled labor in south and yet today own a neglible amount of anything in the south or America for that matter? Do you think that the wealth and power that was garnered during this time in the past is not felt or used today? I would love to tell my son that college is all taken care of because your great grandfather invested in this home on the beach in California but, my great grandfather was not allowed to participate. Just as we are not being allowed to participate now. That wealth that was stolen off of the backs of slaves has passed down from generation to generation and yet for some reason people keep telling me it’s not a problem as long as I work hard. See for someone who is not rejected by society it’s just a matter of looking for the angles and making good business decisions. That “group” of people that you speak of quietly making changes, I’ve been waiting 20 years and if this is what they had in mind I’m disappointed.
VJS
It’s interesting… this idea that “as long as we (minorities [and women]) work hard we should be able to acheive whatever we desire” seems to be pervasive among a lot of people who’ve always enjoyed privilege. I’m pretty sure I used to believe it was true (I believed a lot of dumb things though… like how affirmative action is reverse racism and police are always the good guys). So I sort of know where Michael’s coming from. I really think it all comes down to a lack of experience. He’s never felt it so of course he doesn’t think it’s real.
The thing is, I don’t really know how you can convey that in an argument successfully unless the privileged party — white, male, hetero, whatever — is willing to acknowledge their own lack of experience in issues of prejudice and take you at your word and *listen.*
ABW has that post about how it isn’t up to whites to decide when racism is over; they don’t experience it. She’s absolutely right. But if white people don’t come to the discussion accepting that premise, how can they learn anything? They have to listen to the experiences of people *without* white privilege and accept the fact that in this area, their opinions *are* less valid. I think that’s very tough for people to accept. It means giving up some of that privilege they’ve always taken for granted. So to them, it seems like you’re… I dunno, somehow disenfranchising them or something (which is as ridiculous as claims about her white-bashing and reverse racism, but I think that’s how Michael and some other white people are reacting on this forum).
I dunno. I really like that post by ABW. Wish I could find the link. I think it really gets to the heart of race/gender/sexuality issues in our society, and explains WHY when ABW tells the frustrated white people who come here to shut up and listen, she’s right. They should. But too many of them won’t.
Ico..good points. But what I reacted to to is the absolutely absurd notion that ABW thinks there is nothing that blacks can learn from whites, and therefore comments from them should simply be dismissed. So here we are in 2007 and everything she writes is measured relative to white this, white that, but at the end o the day, she actually thinks it can be solved without even involving whites. ABW, as would others, learn volumes by simply involving whites in the discussion, understanding how whites view the various issues and getting to the nuggets of information that might help make more progress. Blacks in general sure do have a lot to say about whites, perhaps you should lose the arrogant psuedo-intellectual bs and listen to whites.as well considering we are not all haters and racists (as hard as that is for some to believe). To think that you are ultimately going to get to the place you want to be without involving whites and all races in the discussion and solution is quite honestly intellectually dishonest and simply silly.
Victor….I absolutly do consider minorities part of the USA! I should have been more clear on that. Illegal aliens buring the flag of the nation they so badly want to be a part of should angers me and should anger every one of us, unless a person is a “hate america firster”
“ABW thinks there is nothing that blacks can learn from whites, and therefore comments from them should simply be dismissed.”
I do not think so. From what I can see (and please correct me if I’m misrepresenting what you’ve said, ABW), ABW feels there’s nothing to be gained from discussion with whites who just… don’t… listen. A lot of points people end up trying to argue with her are about things she’s already gone over endlessly in other posts. And frankly, it seems like an awful lot of the hecklers who start arguments with her aren’t white people who came to learn about race; they’re folks who came to preach.
“ABW, as would others, learn volumes by simply involving whites in the discussion, understanding how whites view the various issues”
See, I think ABW *knows* how whites view the various issues. I think many black people probably do because the dominant culture is white culture; they’re mired in it. By contrast, I think most whites do not understand how blacks view the various issues. Because whites don’t experience racism, are inclined to dismiss claims of racism (because they don’t feel it), and have no real need or incentive to listen to the experiences of minorities, they have very little comprehension of how pervasive racism is. Talking to someone who thinks it isn’t real is very frustrating, and really pointless unless the person is going to accept the observations at face value instead of denying them (based on his own privileged and colorblind existence). So really, it’s *white* people who need to listen. Only then can the discussion go forward.
And honestly, where are you pulling this stuff about ABW wanting to solve all problems without including all races in the discussion, and believing all whites to be haters and racists? She never said anything like that. Seriously… you seem to have a real habit of twisting the things people say (and putting words in their mouths that they don’t say). Please stop.
Though I’m glad to see you haven’t left the discussion yet. I really think it’s good that you stay here and keep listening…
Let all non minorities go for one hour watching tV and trying to imagine that everyone white in shows AND commercials are black and all blacks and non minorities they see are all white. Quite an effect…then go to the store and imagine all images of people on magazines and products are reversed. Then go home and watch John Travolta’s movie “White Man’s Burden”.
See you how like it.
Please don’t listen to Brad. When we were younger chaps in grade school, he used to make fun of me and call me names. I would take anything he said with a grain of salt. I still have mental wounds I’m trying to get over.
Peace be with you.
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